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Use Permits (split from DNR license hikes)

 
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Use Permits (split from DNR license hikes) Reply with quote

USE PERMITS:

Split from DNR license hikes.

Rather than speak in the abstract, I will stick with what I know.

I am NOT up to speed on what is happening in other states. I guess I would tend to agree there are many other ways the State or DNR could "enhance" revenues... But I can see where this could get out of hand as well.

Seems to me that state land is owned by the public. Same with "navigable waterways". You might not be able charge someone for canoing a river but you might be able to charge for the use of a state maintained launch. Not an access permit, but a "maintainance" fee

EG, there are several Mecosta county parks on the Hardy Dam Backwater (Muskegeon River). And beautiful parks they are... I'll tell ya! They pay for themselves by the revenues they generate, just as they ought to. Pay to drive in, pay to camp, PAY TO USE THE BOAT RAMP. No charge to use the river. All (95%) of the land surrounding this lake is owned by Consumers Power. I do not think there is a state owned launch. Maybe I am wrong. So basically it is pay to play.

Likewise, provate property owners along lakes/rivers are already paying in property taxes. They don't own the water-resource either. Say, you want to launch your Kayak at a public DNR launch and take out and your river cottage? Do you pay to use the ramp? Do you buy a discounted property owners annual permit. Or are you entitled to a "riparian exclusion" being that the river represents a method of travel to your private property? OR do you make friends with an upstream neighbor and work out a launch-take out pact.

Interesting legal question here. If A river is public domain, could charging for access to it be illegal?

Thought of another example: Walloon Lake.

Now we are talking lifestyles of the rich and famous. One of the most beautiful lakes I have ever seen, lined with mega mansions. It is in BOTH Charlevoix and Emmet county. Until recently, it might as well been considered a private lake. There are two marinas, each with private ramps. There was a ramp in the village of Waloon, restricted to lakefront owners only... and a dirt ramp way up on the north arm owned by Emmet county. This ramp had a long steep hill that had to be backed down. 16-18' boat was the limit, maybe.

Anyway, the mega$ lakefront owners fought tooth/nail to restrict outside boat traffic their lake. They had to live with the Emmet county launch which was nothing more than a two track that ended in the lake.

Big push for access and state ramp. In court for a very long time and I think the state won.

Same exact thing is going on with BURT lake, right now. All these county roads that go the water, that are supposed to be open access. Adjacent property owners have sort of squatted them and are fighting against having these roads re opened as launch ramps.

Douglas Lake. One dirt launch next to the Inn. Open to the public. OK... No parking within 2 miles. So much for that unless you own a place on Douglas.

I could go on and on.... Point is, a launch is one thing. Parking is another. Access and maintainince of access another. Apples/oranges

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The horse trail you mentioned does go through some very remote areas of the PRSF. I would imagine the state has to maintain it. There are horse only campgrounds (fee). They just built a bridge across the river to facilitate this trail. Who pays for that?

Elk Viewing: There is a lot of traffic in the PRSF summer mos for this opportunity. There are designated "Elk Viewing" pull off areas. Who do these elk belong to or would it be right to charge for "viewing them" (like at the Detroit Zoo) Ho pays for maintaing all the forest roads to get to these elk view lookouts? Charge for an elkview parking permit?

Charge for camping on BBI north shore? They do charge for a permit, don't they. This whole subject went around and around last winter. Some wanted to turn it into a SF type primative campground... which would destroy the atmosphere of the North shore. Leave well enough alone?

We could easily move this into the ferry and access to BBI issue. Lets not go there, again. Lets call it a privately owned and operated floating toll road and leave it there. Even the DNR has to pay to access state land?

I am sure the state will come up with something. Gonna have to. I am not sure how receptive the public will be toward paying for something that was previously "free" and taken for granted, especially when getting it from all other angles. It would have to be fair and elective.

What ISN'T fair is to charge "consumptive" users and arm and leg and give free pass to all others.

HOLD THE PRESS! I just got it. an AIR tax! $.10 per breath! If they can sell Michigans water to Michiganders???

How the old Beatles tune go?"You know the best thing in life are free" (give me money...)
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Jester
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty gosh darn sure we already DO pay an AIR tax, its the factories and cars that pollute and we the people are paying the taxes for the anti-smog thingy ...... I for one are in agreement with the State for increasing the fishing and hunting license fees mainly because we here in Michigan are the lowest on our rates for this. Go to Montana and try and get a Resident fishing license for $14.95. Good Luck! The complaint I forsee is WHERE IS THAT MONEY GOING???

Go to England and see just what kind of taxes those pore chaps are paying .... ELLOW GOVERNOR >>> DRIVING TAX .... MILK TAX ( yes I said milk) ...... Just about anything they can tax ... they do .......

Until they put a U.S. tax on sex .... I wont complain .... Boat tax .. car tax .... We use to have that .... It was called Luxury tax ........

That Beatles tune was TaxMan ......
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jester wrote:


I for one are in agreement with the State for increasing the fishing and hunting license fees mainly because we here in Michigan are the lowest on our rates for this. Go to Montana and try and get a Resident fishing license for $14.95. Good Luck! The complaint I forsee is WHERE IS THAT MONEY GOING???


Congratulations: You just scored a bullseye on the core of this issue:

Where is this money going and what are we getting in return?

Well, the cost of licenses maybe hasn't kept up with inflation... but the quality of management derived from the sale of licenses has reciprocally gone backwards. I am starting to think $5.00 would be a rip off. Fish stocking programs all but eliminated. One CO per 4 counties? That money is going to prop up the boys upstairs which "make the decisions" Oooops, I forgot... they can't make decisons without getting fired if things don't go well. Let the govenor make them, just to be on the safe side. Else sit at the desk and do a study re decision safety.

Ever see an ant with a head the size of an elephant's? A good analogy of what the Department of Conservation has evolved into over the last 20 years.

Link. I don't know but if those are appearing without you putting them there, you better run an adware scan on you PC. Something going on there. I deleted the links for you. I clicked on it and got some sort of page redirect thing which mean is it planting a not-nice cookie. Don't go there.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Congratulations: You just scored a bullseye on the core of this issue:


So tell me Johnny, what do we have for this gentleman today? >>>> A BRAND NEW 52" PLASMA TV .......................
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jester wrote:
Quote:

Congratulations: You just scored a bullseye on the core of this issue:


So tell me Johnny, what do we have for this gentleman today? >>>> A BRAND NEW 52" PLASMA TV .......................


What are you??? DNR management... sailing solo in the sea of entitlement? How about an inflatable doll that resembles Jennifer Granholm?
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Get your PC figureds out? No off the wall links so you must have?
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TonyDriza
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis wrote:
Where is this money going and what are we getting in return?

Well, the cost of licenses maybe hasn't kept up with inflation... but the quality of management derived from the sale of licenses has reciprocally gone backwards.


As Dylan said, probably best of all, "The answer my friend, is blowin' in the wind..." How many hunters, fishermen, sledders, hikers, bikers, kayakers (sp?), canoers, etc. are there in this state? How many of them have an opinion as to how the money ought to be allocated, collected, appropriated, and spent? How many do you really think would agree? Ever try herding CATS? We're probably as guilty as anyone for voting a good many of the yahoos into office that directly control these issues. Then, when it doesn't go our way - wah, wah, wah...

We can talk all we want about ideal situations, utopian talk up the wazoo, and conveniently overlook a boatload of reality by proposing half-baked schemes that are no more likely to work than those in effect now. Get some operationally minded people in these positions, look toward having the Wharton School of Business guys assume a tertiary role instead of running it, and we'll be OK.

Ask some questions before you vote next time, to find out where these individuals stand on these issues, and vote accordingly. While it's fun to rant on these forums, and while it may be theraputic and cheaper than a shrink, it really doesn't do much in the end, does it? Heck if Gov. Granholm is the one who used a bit of common sense, and got the RR grade opened north of Indian River, to the angst of the Mullet Lake $ mongers, more power to her. We need more of that kind of "take that, you twits..."

I personally think Susie has scored a laser guided direct hit:

Quote:
Here's my idea.. Permit sticker purchased with your drivers license, mandatory.. Small fee, hardly noticed.. Say 4 bucks. Heavily proscecuted for a while.. Covers all river and lakes access for a year.

Canoe liveries must apply for a permit.. Cost of, I'm not sure.. Charter boats do but should have to pay for each one instead of full coverage. They are the heaviest users.. What do ya think? I think having this would help keep the cost of hunt/fishing licence fees down..


End of conversation - this would work. Sure, there would be some who would object for the sake of it, or because they aren't the ones who thought of it, or a few other reasons best left for another time.

BTW, it was George that penned "Taxman". The good stuff never goes out of fashion...

Cheers....................Tony
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Spartan-1
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those of you that think that us twits vote these people into office, you are CORRECT!!!
However, please give one example of a political figure that has been voted into office and has followed all that we twits were made to believe. And that is because we followed these people and listened to them, believed in what they were telling, because we researched who we voted for and then the silly bas_ _ _ d does not do at all what we were promised.

Jenny G. passing on too schools and extra $211.00 per pupil for all districts for their yearly budget, three months before the election!!! This was a guarantee to the schools, book it DANO. THIS MONEY IS YOURS!!! 3 weeks after she is elected back into office, SORRY FOLKS YOU LOSE, WE HAVE NO MONEY FOR YOU!!!

You think her stand on giving money to education didn't sway some voters that are now wishing they could take their vote back???

Reality,
Most are saying what they really believe to get elected, but are doing what others are paying/telling them what is best!!!

Not just picking on Jenny, I voted for her and can't stand her, but Devos was certainly not a good solution to this states problems.
JUST an opinion!
Thanks for your time!
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony, etal

What do Politicians and diapers have in common? Change them every 15 minutes for the same reason.

I totally agree. Susie may have a solution here. How does one get something that might actually work past the "legion of the fearful and indecisive flip-floppers". In my opinion, The DNR is near totally dysfunctional, this being based on they way they have done things and seem to think the old rules still work.

I am not bashing or ranting. I am simply pointing out the obvious. Before a problem can be fixed, it has to be identified. If the DNR was run like a business,, and/or these dork stuffed shirts were held accountable based on performance, much would change. Too bad the ^ positions are appointed and not elected offices. But I am not sure that would fix it either.

Maybe Bob Dylan could run the DNR.... Or Bozo the clown? Nothing to lose? Right now Jennifer is running things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am a very old Beatles/McCartney/Harrison/Lennon fan. Part of my youth. I honestly didn't know Harrison penned Taxman. But the lyrics fit his style. So much classic work. You would have to be like a "doctor of Beatle-ology" to know all their work. That stuff is timeless. What an incredible mind-blowing music era (new thread, I feel it coming)...

Among my other favorites stemming from the same era is Mark Knopfler who goes WAY back and rose with Clapton. Also timeless.

Dire Straits: "I get money for nothing and my chicks for free"

updated
The DNR gets "money for nothing and their jobs for free" (just don't make a bad decision, there goes the free money)

I have no solutions. Probably because I am not a politician. What I do know is am all tired of paying too much for obsolete old-school. SHOW ME!
TDC
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beatles tune "Money"

The best things in life are free
But you can keep them for the birds and bees
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

You're lovin' gives me a thrill
But you're lovin' don't pay my bills
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Money don't get everything it's true
What it don't get, I can't use
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want, wah

Money don't get everything it's true
What it don't get, I can't use
Now give me money
That's what I want
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want

Well now give me money
A lot of money
Wow, yeah, I wanna be free
Oh I want money
That's what I want
That's what I want, well
Now give me money
A lot of money
Wow, yeah, you need money
Now, give me money
That's what I want, yeah
That's what I want
~~~~~~~~~~~

Taxman (Harrison)

[1,2,3,4

Hrmm!

1,2...

1,2,3,4.]

Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet

Taxman!
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

Don't ask me what I want it for (Aahh Mr. Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more (Aahh Mr. Heath)
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

And you're working for no one but me
Taxman!
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TonyDriza
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel the stress flowing from my body already....

Spartan-1 wrote:
For those of you that think that us twits vote these people into office, you are CORRECT!!!
However, please give one example of a political figure that has been voted into office and has followed all that we twits were made to believe. And that is because we followed these people and listened to them, believed in what they were telling, because we researched who we voted for and then the silly bas_ _ _ d does not do at all what we were promised.


It's nearly impossible for anyone, running for office, to do everything he or she said they would like to do, unless of course, you're talking about the Hitlers, Husseins, Papa Docs of the world (in other words, a dictatorship). Thankfully, we're not there; the point is that the elected officials still have to play nicely with their fellow elected officials, who could, and would stonewall a bunch of other issues in retaliation for "going boldly where no man has gone before." As I alluded to before, in a pie in the sky, utopian world, all of the politicians would execute faithfully, every tenet they set forth during the campaign. Not going to happen, and you don't need me to tell you that.

Just for the record, the only "twits" I was referring to were those that threatened lawsuits (the joy of today's society - I'll sue you back to the stone age if I don't get my way...) if sledding were allowed on the State property (former RR grade). In full blown "twit" moments, I have however pulled the lever on a good many that I wished I could have taken back later. Yeah, come to think of it, I'd rather have a 500 ton locomotive pulling a stack of 30 cars rumbling through my backyard than some snowmobilers who will stop for gas, buy lunch, stay in local motels, buy parts to fix their broken sleds. Maybe like the area so much, they buy a place...Pump a lot more into the local economy and pocketbook of local businesses than the landowners who own the big joints on the water (sure they pay a lot of taxes, but that $ doesn't trickle down in any great quantities to the local businessmen who depend on it day to day, week to week to pay salaries, and make a buck or two...

Let's solve the user fee situation before we set out to reform education - talk about a radioactive subject, even up on BBI, with monstrous enrollment, and employment opportunities that exist there...
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TonyDriza
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis wrote:
I am a very old Beatles/McCartney/Harrison/Lennon fan. Part of my youth. I honestly didn't know Harrison penned Taxman. But the lyrics fit his style. So much classic work. You would have to be like a "doctor of Beatle-ology" to know all their work. That stuff is timeless. What an incredible mind-blowing music era (new thread, I feel it coming)...


Yep, new thread for sure. No group ever, before or since, have broken the ground they did, and in the case of Paul, is still breaking.

FWIW, while most associate "Money" with the Beatles, they only covered the song during their Hamburg and Cavern Club days. It was written by Mr. Motown himself, Berry Gordy Junior, with Janie Bradford, 1959...

The Dr. is in....

Cheers...............Tony
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony

My boy "Yur da man" on the beatles stuff. I am so senile I have to look it it all up. Bits pieces and fragments. The pathetic part is that lyrics jigsaw puzzle of that era, make far more sense that the age we live in? Those abstractions wre reality based. What we got now?

BTW. my current Jimi H sig was subtracted from "Purple Haze" As if you didn't know that?

Anyone else out there on this wavelength?
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bknoll
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are sooooooooooooo old!!! U2 are the Beatles of my generation.....now there's a band.
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