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Rich
Bois & Grills Club
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Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Waterford, WI

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it actually takes less energy to create a gallon of ethanol than it does a gallon of gas. use the methane from landfills to run the plant and run your farm equipment on biodiesel. we were only hooked on crude oil because it was cheap and we were naive about its effect on the environment. neither of these are the case today. the only downside to ethanol is you get roughly 20% less energy out of a gallon compared to gas, however price difference will more than make up for this.
the big benefits to ethanol:
1. HUGE BOOST TO THE AMERICAN ECONOMY
2. 0 emissions
3. ethanol burns cooler than gas and leaves no carbon contamination in the combustion chambers, which means engine oil stays clean longer and they find that engines last longer.

an embarrassing fact: Brazil is the world leader in alternative fuels and fuel management and is not dependant on importing oil because of their
efforts. Nothing against Brazil, (just would be nice to see better leadership develop in this country).
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Squeaky
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Joined: 15 Dec 2002
Posts: 650
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This problem has been going for many years now so lets go way back as far as leadership goes. We need to find a way to depend on ourselves. And this will take a whole bunch of heads getting together. From the common people up to the leadership.
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Charlie Trie
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The energy equation on ethanol is not nearly that simple. Depending on how you calculate things it costs less, more, or the same to produce BTU's from ethanol. Kind of things you have to deal with are the value of land, wages, retirement, cost of capital, soil degradation, etc. The oxygenate value of ETOH in reducing air pollution coupled with reduced water pollution is probably the strongest public policy argument for ETOH. Driving infrastructure development to buffer potential sudden oil price shock by OPEC is probably the second best argument. Energy efficiency is the least effective argument, and may require Enron-type accounting to make it work economically.

Remove government subsidies and ethanol plants will disappear like they did in the late 1980's.

It can be a huge boost to the midwest farmer, but it probably won't help the American Economy at all. Clean coal technology or coal gasification makes alot more sense for our infrastructure, and for our economy.

ETOH has the same emissions as all other carbon-based fuels. The MTBE makers like to point out that the low boiling point of ETOH causes it to actually increase some smog elements.

I don't know whether it burns cooler or not. I do know that the laws of thermodynamics indicate that the bigger the heat differential in an engine the more efficiency you get. An intelligent approach would be to use a fuel cell that would extract all of the chemical bond energy stored in a carbon skeleton molecule like ETOH or petroleum without wasting heat energy to the environment. Time to look out the windshield rather than focusing on the rear view mirror.

Why be embarrassed by Brazil? Lovely country; lovely people; They happen to be blessed with sugar cane and the government made a decision to push ETOH. Detroit was part and parcel with designing their dual fuel engines. But these decisions were made after the 1970's oil shocks. When oil came back down to $10/barrel, the Brazilian ethanol industry nearly died. Now it's back. Will it continue? Your guess is as good as mine.

If you're really interested in ETOH, suggest you download some government reports, some environmental group reports, and some corportate reports from producers and COOPs.

It aint clearcut. It may be a fad. Energy attracts lotsa kooks.
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Erica
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Joined: 12 Nov 2004
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Location: Toledo, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060724/NEWS06/607240409/0/NEWS16

All this has gone beyond talk here locally. I don't know if it will all come together, but it sounds like a win-win situation.

I wonder if we could make bricks out of what they dredge from BBI's inland lakes?
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Charlie Trie
Birch Baby
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My town generates 1 MW of power from its garbage dump and says it has enough gas to generate 2 MW. Unfortunately the high-end engine they purchased for durability is down for repairs - go figure. Meanwhile the power company has offered to buy the power for 2 cents/KWH and resell it to us for 8 cents/KWH. Reason: transmission costs. So we use the power to run the sewer plant. The other 1 MW of gas gets flared off (burned) to get rid of it.

But we're lucky. The town over the hill bought an engine that can make 2 MW of power from their landfill, but they can't even get enough gas reliably to do 1 MW. Operating costs are such that they're now just burning off the gas.....................they're trying to sell the engine.


You're right, we've gone beyond local issues.

Energy is too tough a problem for me to figure. I just pay and go on.

Your mileage may vary.


Charlie
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: lights Reply with quote

I AM TAKING ALL OF THIS IN SO I CAN SAVE ON MY BILLS
ALL READY HAVE TRIED SOME TO THE BULBS FROM HOME DEPOT ...
MY 2 SONS HAVE BEEN DOINGIT FOR A LONG WHILE NOW ...

I READ IF YOU TURNED YOUR AC DOWN 2 DEGREES YOU CAN SAVE 10 PERCENT A MONTH ...

FOR AWHILE NOW I HAVE TURNED IT UP THEN I FIND IT UP DOWN AGAIN .. JOHN LIKES IT COOLER IN HERE THEN I DO ..BUT WHEN YOU ARE IN YOUR OWN HOME AND YOU ARE FREEZING THERES SOME THING WRONG !! LOL

I USE THE YELLOW BULBS FOR THE FRONT AND BACK AS THEY REALLY WORK !! THE BUGS DO NOT COME FLYING TO THE DOOR ... I DO NOT KNOW HOW MUCH THEY COST TO RUN .. BUT THEY ARE WORTH IT ....

DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THEY COST PER MONTH ON AN AVERAGE TO RUN ???? THEY ARE NOT USED LIKE THE INSIDE LIGHTS ...
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Rich
Bois & Grills Club
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Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Waterford, WI

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

government subsidies will decline as the price of corn rises due to higher demands. the government also benefits from the taxes collected from the new corporations and its employees. from what i've read the overall concensus is very positive for this industry. common sense indicates that if e85 wasn't going to be a big deal the automakers wouldn't be wasting their time and money producing so many vehicles that will run on it.
Charlie, as a smart investor i'm surprised that you're not all over this one.
my personal feelings on this subject stem from my desire to see our people benefit financially and not foreign countries that can't stand us. also, everything i've read states that it is much more environmentally friendly than gas. i don't understand where you are getting your info.
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Ron Petersen
Lake Mary Muse
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Joined: 22 Aug 2002
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Location: Tipton, Iowa

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live in the heart of corn country - I can't wait until all fuel is ethanol - Or can I! - Right now the government subsididizes the farmers if the crop price is not high enough - Guess where that money comes from - You and I!!! So if ethanol takes off like everyone thinks, the corn price will go up and so will ethanol - next thing with the higher corn prices, land values will balloon and pretty soon the farmer can't make it again because his price of his crops is not high enough to offset it - Here's how we can help - Government Subsidies!!!!!!! - It's all a money game - I can't wait to pay $5.00 a gallon for ethanol!!!!!!
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mikewhite
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Location: Sand Bay

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:23 pm    Post subject: Hydrogen Reply with quote

I sat up an took notice one day, as I listened to President Bush say, that Hydrogen is the future. I am not a big fan of him, but, you would assume that, he has an inside track on what is happening. I would bet that we should really be putting our money on the ones developing hydrogen powered vehicles.
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Ron Petersen
Lake Mary Muse
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Joined: 22 Aug 2002
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Location: Tipton, Iowa

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike - that is kind of intereting that you bring that up - I have a brother that used to work for Nissan R&D, and they had vehicles running on hydrogen quite a while before he left them 6 years ago and he said it was the fuel of the future - Not sure what happened, but was suprised when you said Bush was backing it with his "Oil" background - Something has to change!!
Another interesting thing they were doing back then was not using starters on cars - a computer simply figured out which cylinder was next in line to fire and it would do it and start the motor rotation - He said it was neat, because there wasn't any noise - just all of a sudden the motor was running - Don't know what happened to that either
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theeislandgirl
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Location: Texas

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject: gas Reply with quote

speaking of texas


alot of gas down here in the oil land
Drilling everywhere ...
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Kevin Gibbons
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Joined: 30 May 2006
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Location: cheboygan, mi

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the oil company's want to make that proffit of 940 billion every quarter. And going up. And we are giving to them. The only way around it is quit using oil because we can't depend on our goverment for help they're to busy putting proffits in there pockets.
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NJean
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Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 77
Location: Lapeer

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It takes 300 million gallons of water to produce 100 million gallons of ethanol. How long before water costs more per gallon than gas? Oh yeah, it already does if you buy the small bottles. What next, a water shortage. Alternate energey I understand, but what's the alternative for water?
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Water is not cheap any way you look at it. Especially if you live in a home and not a condo, apt. etc. and are paying for your own water. And we all know the cost will go up.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Last edited by Kevin Gibbons on Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is all a rip off
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Bruce Lord
Tavern Tennant
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Joined: 18 May 2002
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Location: Grabill Indiana

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You ought to sell it and take the profit while you have the chance. Doubt you can. Who needs 3000 sq ft any way probably alot of wasted space.
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3000 sq feet?
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread was started in July 2006... back when we thought things had gone to hell. Worth a re-read in March 2008! 2 pages 10 minutes. Gas was <$2.,00 a gallon... A year and a half later.
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NJean
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Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a new solar technology that is suppose to begin production in California 2008. It is called Nano Solar and is suppose to be cheaper to heat with this than it is with coal. I will be watching this company quite closely over the next couple of years.

A building company has also designed a 1200 sq ft solar house at the cost of about $100,000 to build that has utilities costs of approximately $25 per month. They are still working on improving it so the costs will be $0.

We will be retiring in a couple of years and living on a fixed income, it only makes sense to try and eliminate any expenses. No house payment and no utility bills leave more money for the fun stuff. We will probably be purchasing a hybrid vehicle too, but were waiting for them to be on the market a little longer so we can see what kind of issues there are with the mechanics of these vehicles. A few people at work have them and so far they are real happy with them but they just bought them in the last 6 months.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We better do something pretty soon I see our gas prices went up at the pump by 30 cents over night.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To how much? It was $3.15 yesterday. I almost forgot to put the dot between the 3 and the 1.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was 3.02 yesterday and 3.35 this morning.
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BBIBABS
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on Kevin you got more money than God. Itís us poor folks down here in smog infested over populated mixing pot of life that are riding our mopeds picking up pop cans to get to our crap but jobs you should be concerned about.
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