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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Sad news Reply with quote

First it was Iraq was in bed with Al Quaida. Lie.
Then Iraq was obtaining nuclear material from Africa. Lie
Then Iraq had or was making WMDs. Lie
Saddam Hussein was the problem. Bush hung him. Is the problem gone?
Then we were there to help the Iraqi Government get established. Aint happening. 19 Americans killed this past week.
Now we are fighting special groups from....you guessed it...Iran.
Now the problem in Iraq is Iran.
How do you suppose we will solve that mystical threat?

Sheeple wake up! Your friends and neighbors and fellow Americans are being led by dictators! Our economy is a shambles. Our warmonger president and vice president and general "Betrayus" are bent on attacking another country that has not attacked the U.S. and does not pose a threat.

Scream, holler, write to your elected officials and insist on no more war!!
Jail the real terrorists and criminals: Bush, Cheney, and their cronies.

Have a nice day.
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Troy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that not all of these things listed are lies.
I have seen enough personally to believe that Iraq was making and acquired WMD. They probably moved them out of the country, most likely to Syria, before we came in and now we cannot locate them, so this makes it look bad for us. I remember there was a military target (building)destoyed, then Sadam has his men come in and cover the place with baby formula. So they take all these pictures and film and say look how horrible the Americans are, now we can not feed our babies. You probably believed that too right John?

I would rather go after these countries on their soil, rather than wait until they attack Americans on our soil. Then everyone wants to know why we didn't do anything.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Our soil Reply with quote

Troy, you have to get your head out of the sand. How was Iraq ever going to attack the U.S.? What are they going to do, Troy...swim over! They have no navy, no air force, nothing. When they had an army they wore their street shoes with their military uniform. Wake up! These wars have nothing to do with security or threats...it is all for land and oil acquisition and they are counting on sheep just like you to believe their BS.

I love my country and the constitution. We attacked Iraq without a declaration of war....unconstitutional! I say this, " if you love this country, then you love our constitution and if you don't, get out!" Go fight the terrorists, Troy, if you can figure out who they are. If you can't, then just go police Baghdad and straighten them out.

"Common sense is not that common" and that certainly applies to millions of U.S. citizens.

The "Lies" stated in my first posts have been found to be LIES, Troy, LIES. Plugging your ears and yelling does not change the truth. Bush lied to this entire country and continues to ignore the people of this country. I'm amazed when I hear people like you that still support this idiot running our lame government.

Nothing personal, but as Americans, we all support the constitution. When our Federal Government ignores the constitution, like Bush has, then it is up to ALL of us to insist by any means possible that the criminals breaking constitutional law be brought to justice.

Do you support our constitution, Troy?
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Pharmer Lana
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few things in defense of my good friend Troy.

He is an obvious supporter of the American Constitution, as evidenced by his military service in the US Navy. Differing opinions on the same topic do not necessarily mean that one person is more or less a supporter of our constitution. Opinion differ based on perspective, personal experience and knowledge base.

Having my own personal experience in the USAF, as well as a top secret security clearance to select information regarding my job, I am well aware that much of the information that the media disperses is not necessarily the same as the information that the decision makers possess.

What may appear as "lies" today may turn out to be the exact opposite, when more information is ultimately revealed. Some things must be kept secret for good reason.

I do regret that we are at war, but I do not suppose to know all the details regarding these decisions. Motivations may be different than they appear right now.

Right now, like Troy, I also choose to have faith in America and our motivations. Saddam was a tyrant, but he did protect Iraq from Iran. I do believe that Iranian aggression was predicted at the time of his death.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My question at this point is, I really don't care if we lied to or not, but how do we get out of this thing. We can't just pull out or the entire region will become totally de-stablized. This would cause a new terrorist state or many of them. We also can't afford to stay much longer, we don't have any money, as seen by our rapidly deflating dollar. You think gas is high now, just wait a year as we watch our entire economy collapse. If you recall this happened to the Soviet Union. They could'nt afford to fix their planes and their fleet sat rusting in the water. Their people lost their homes and were hungry. Starting to sound a bit familiar.

You talk about a sad thing, we have no one running for president that will be able to fix this. I think history will show this war as the biggest blunder ever and hopefully will not take down the America that we love. End of my happy Sunday worth!!!!!!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is what I think is sad. Before this whole thing started, George Bush went to the House and asked for the power to do what he felt was necessary to right a wrong. 425 of 435 Representatives voted without question to give him that power. As well, 98 of 100 Senators voted the same way. The President told us all in no uncertain terms that this would be a long drawn out process. Not days or weeks, but years. He made very clear what our objectives were, and that once we went in, we were there to stay, until our job was done. And our leaders, almost to a man, said let's do it.
So here we are, years later, losing American service men and women, as was predicted,and all our leaders can do is point the finger at , more often than not, George Bush, and to a lesser degree, the Republicans as a whole.They all claim Bush lied to get what he wanted, and maybe he did, but I'm more inclined to believe that that is the story these politicians must tell their constituents, in order to keep their jobs. Hind sight is always better, and it's easy to throw the leader under the bus to save your own neck, as far as I see it, this whole thing is happening the way the President said it would. So I don't feel he lied to me. And if anyone feels he lied to them, you need to get rid of your Senators and Reps. who apparently have been duped by this man. Because not only did they agree with him, now that they have to disagree with him to save their careers, not one of them has a viable plan to fix the problem. We are paying them collectively, millions of dollars to lead, and all we get is finger pointing? And to those of you that believe it is as simple as just leaving the region, I hope you never become president. If that makes me a sheep, than so be it.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Sad news Reply with quote

To be a patriot, a person does not have to be a veteran. Our good serviceman and woman all swear an oath to uphold our constitution, not an unconstitutional president. We went to war in Iraq illegally, without a constitutional declaration of war. Our proud servicemen and women were sent into a country that did not attack us. Our Military, constitutionally, was designed to protect against attacks against our country. Iraq DID NOT attack the USA, period. Iran has not attacked the USA.

Bush is also using illegal surveillance against U.S. citizens. Are we fighting to uphold our freedoms or support a corrupt Federal Government? I am not against our service men and women. They all deserve better than the present leadership. And whatever "secrets" that our highest leaders have are never given to the soldiers fighting in the field. If that were the case the guns might be turned on our so called leaders.

The region we are in was actually in better hands than it is now. They had electricity, water, and peace to a much greater degree than they have now. The United States armed forces will NEVER resolve the bitter feelings between the different factions in Iraq. NEVER. Our whole military system is not designed to mediate disputes between warring factions. I say if Iran wants to go into Iraq, let them go in. Let Iran resolve all the issues. Let Iran spend 12 billion a month shoving their idea of government down Iraq's throat. They will not have any more success than we have had.

We marched in and we can march out. Millions of Iraqi citizens with the financial means have left that hellhole. The American citizens should not have to finance another country's governmental/sect/tribal/faction problems.

Currently, our government leaders lie to us daily about leaving Iraq. They have no plans to leave Iraq....none! Why do any USA citizens tolerate that bull? It is unfathomable to me.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too have had 8 years experience with the military. The media and the military are and will always be two different sides. It has to be this way. I believe in our government and our military. "Thank You" to all our guys and gals for helping to keep our country free. And "Thank You" to our government...

Saddam knew how to do just exactly what he did do. He was horrible. Another Hitler! Were we suppose to just sit back and watch and wait?

Lets get rid of the Bush administration. Had the whole family long enough. And lets make sure that the Clinton administration does not come back. Had enough of them too. We do need a whole new start. We need a breath of fresh air.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:40 pm    Post subject: Fresh Start Reply with quote

Thanks for serving our country for eight years, Squeaky. The citizens of this country are truly indebted to you and your brothers and sisters in arms.

I wonder what you mean when you say you believe in our government? Do you believe that our Federal government should follow our constitution or not? Currently, our government, the house, the senate, the executive, branches ignore the constitution and more importantly the people. You took an oath to uphold our constitution, did you not? As a former member of the military, should you support the federal government when that government does not uphold the constitution, the laws of this land? Are you fighting for the freedoms of the people of this land or are you representing a corrupt government that sends our fine people to war illegally?

I mean no disrespect to our military men and women. But when you promise to uphold the laws of our land, didn't you expect our elected leaders to do the same? Whether a person is military or civilian, we should expect our federal government to follow the laws of this land...and it aint happening. Blind loyalty or patriotism is precisely what dictators expect of their subjects. And right now, in this country, it is better to keep your mouths shut than challenge our benevolent "Federal Government". NOT. It is our patriotic duty to speak out when the government is unjust. And never in the history of this great country has our government been more unjust.

We are 9 trillion in debt. As tax day approaches, I am mad as heck that my tax dollars are being spent on unnecessary wars. Actually our taxes do not even cover half the interest owed on our debt. And you believe in our government? I believe in our men and women in the armed forces but I do not believe in our government or the military leaders. Our soldiers are simply fodder for some sick agenda that the corporate elites have dreamed up.

The purpose of this new thread was simply this: If you are appalled that the Bush admn. is pumping up the propaganda machine to justify another attack on a soverign nation, then call or email or write to the lame elected officials to let them hear your voice and express your outrage. Or not.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy John, Can't you just be happy that the boat will soon be making trips to our wonderful Island.... Lets try to keep the topics some what related to THE Island.. I know I know, what ever comes to your mind at any time is related to the Island.. See you soon on BBI.
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Troy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, lets wait around until one of these countries kills another 3000+ citizens and then complain because we did nothing to prevent it.

I did two tours in the region and I am speaking from personal experience, not from the LIES the media has told the public. Talk about a propaganda machine. I have seen a lot of before and after pictures and actual film footage of these targets that the media reported as something other than what they were. I have no idea why the government allows them to report this way, maybe they are more afraid of what would happen if the media told you what we really found over there.

Who said our leaders did not share these secrets with us? Is that really what you think? That the military is full of a bunch of mindless sheep? I did fight the terrorists and people like you that sit around and second guess what we did without having all the facts really disgust me. It reminds me of how Vietnam veterans were treated when they came back home. After going through hell, the way they were treated when they returned home makes me sick. I won't even ask your stance on that mess John.

I can see this is going no where, so I will not continue to post on this thread.

Enjoy your time on the island while your military protects your freedom. #Mad
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject: THIS Reply with quote

Thank You John for starting a new thread on a topic that is serious as a heart attack !!!

I did not agree on ending this thread when they did but I sat back and said nothing so as not to cause another stink ..

I know how serious and how important it is to share the views about what is going on in "all of our world ''..

The people that do not wish to read or share on this thread then just click the key where it says you do not want to recieve the topic ..
thats all you have to do

There was alot said on this sunday and I must say I really enjoyed reading all the diffrent views ...

I really feel it is important for all of us to discuss this Exclamation I do not feel we have to sit back and be silence .... we are all a part of the island and the island connects to what is happening in the world ..
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Rosemary
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Steve.........thought your nickname was "Rocky" not "Sheeple"?
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doug miller
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did any of you hear the story on NPR this morning about the world food bank? Two things of interest. First, because we are using a lot of grain for ethanol and biofuels that would normally be eaten, the potential shortage of food for poor people throughout the world could create a much bigger problem than the cost of fuel here. If the guy speaking at one point was correct, the amount of grain needed to make enough fuel to fill a 25 gallon SUV fuel tank would feed a person for one year. Maybe using food to make energy is not the way to go.

But the second point goes to the issue in this thread: Guess which country provides 40 to 50% of the money and food that is used by the World Food Bank? No surprise, it is the USA.

John, I think what many of us find troubling about some of your comments about the US government is this: We know the US is not perfect. We know that government officials sometimes make decisions with the wrong motives and that they make mistakes. But the version of events that you regularly put forth here--and it is one that you can find on Air America (that is, if you could find Air America!) and the Daily Kos and the other places--seems to some of us, in a word, wrong.

Just as one example, do you really fear that the US Government is secretly watching and listening to the average citizen to see what we are thinking or saying? I do not. First, the pollsters, the 24 hour media, and the blogs can tell them that. And if they are listening (and would this be a democracy if they were not?), where is the evidence that the Government, or even Dick Cheney--perhaps the most vilified man in America, has tried to stop the constant attacks on him by using what he has heard to go after his or their opponents? Hillary and Barack and the Daily Kos live and it is as it should be. Is the government listening to conversations from overseas involving US visitors or citizens that might involve terrorism? I hope so. Do they sometimes go to far? No doubt. Is the CIA doing things that we don't know about? Again, in a world of some very evil men who may be plotting another 9/11--I hope so. And I hope investigative journalists will keep looking for evidence of these CIA activities and so provide a system of checks and balances. But when the US government and the US people are compared against the governments and people of the world, I think we are a force for great good and not evil in the world.

Concerning Iran, in light of how our troops are already otherwise occupied around the world, it seems highly unlikely that the US would go to war with Iran. However, given what Iran has said about the state of Israel, what Israel might do at some point is another story. (Imagine how the state of Michigan would feel if Canada essentially said we had no right to exist--we might take action before Canada could arm itself with the ability to carry out its threat.)
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Uncle Steve
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile Smile You are right Rosemary, however in John's mind I am a Sheeple

I will let him have his Fun.. Life is to short to get upset about a name..
Have a great day , and we will see you on the Rock.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could see it comeing, I told my better half 2 years ago this would cause starvation in the poor parts of the world. Wait till the war pigs start the war with Iran things are really gonna get bad. Right here at home were gonna pay double for gas after you wait in line for it all day. The cost of food here is gonna go sky high. We filled our 5 hundred gallon tank up just in case. Johns just telling it like it is....Your right on about the ethanol Doug. Just watched a news clip today about a cheese farmer in Wisconson who now runs his entire farm and supplies 300 homes in his area with electricity from cow manure. We need to turn this oil thing around with a real new alternative way to fuel our country. I think now were on the right track of ridding ourselves of the evil oil mongrals. Doug I hope your right and we dont bomb Iran. It wont be a pissing match. 12 billion a month will go to 30 billion.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAY OBAMA! i cant wait
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JEE, thanks for keepin' it REAL! Don't let the sheeple pull you back from the political frontline. Rational thinkers like you and me and 3putt, know what we're up against. Ignorance, apathy, self-righteousness and a propensity to BAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Uncle Steve, we can't talk solely about the island on this site. We all love the island, and it provides us with many topics of conversation, but we are all affected by the rest of this f'd up world around us, and sometimes, you just gotta *female dog*! (complain, vent, etc...)


Doug, how's life in happy-land? Everbody's just peachy, I'm sure! "Cheers! Last one to the Neiman-Marcus is a rotten egg!!!!!!"

Snakegirl, I never thought I'd say it, but bring on Obama! He's our best chance right now, for leaving our broken government behind, and starting to build anew!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The war pigs are gonna use the next flair up in the southern Iraq as an excuse to bomb the Irainian republican gaurd. Then thier gonna let the Irainians level the green zone so they can go in Iran and level all thier nuke plants and power plants and bridges and bases, sink all thier ships. This time all you idiots out there are gonna get your real share of excitement. 5000 Americans are gonna die, 20,000 Irainians. You better hope The rest of the middle eastern countries dont get fed up with America the beautiful and grab that giant shut-off valve and turn it to the right untill the oil flow stops all together. Watch our country go into total caos. No gas for no one. No one goes to work, total shut down. I think we have enough bases in the middle east. Matter of fact we have a huge base there its called Isreal. Thats just not enough for the war pigs.
This time the 2 Idiots at the top are gonna get what they want. There was a time when I said the only republican I would ever vote for would be J.Mcain. Not no more...A vote for John is a vote for death and destruction. The idiot believes he can win a cival war in someone elses country. (that we started) I cant vote for Billary. She lies like a rug. So I guess the only vote left is for Obama. Lets hope he doesnt inherit a mess so big that no one can fix it. A while back a friend of mine told me of a senario of Goerge holding office after his time because of total caos and martial law.
I thought he was alittle out there. Now I think he might be right on...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile JEE, Piper, and 3 putt .... The GREAT thing about this country is we can ALL express our views, and not have to worry about you guys hiring a hit man for me or others and you know I wouldn't put a BIG PINK Fuxxxxg rock on JEE front porch or puncture Pipers " pipes " .. As for 3 putt, he might just have to look over his shoulder once in awhile LOL .. We ALL agree BBI is the Best.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:39 pm    Post subject: another choice Reply with quote

Check this out. It will surprise you....

http://www.nolanchart.com:80/article3438.html

Have a happy day Steve. Remember, the system works for you...at least for now. And I will be very happy to get on the rock. I love it there. And in a sick kinda way, I look forward to seeing you and Doug.

Doug, aren't you a lawyer? If I break the law, do I have to accept some sort of punishment...time, fines, community service? If our elected officials have taken an oath to uphold our constitution, our laws, and they break those laws should we as citizens quietly go on our way and say, "our government is good."?

Our Supreme court just rejected millions of signatures on "Redress of Grievances" which is the peoples right under our constituion. But, hey, our benevolent government is good. LOL
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm simply speechless at some of you. Thanks Troy, and all of you who have served in our military to keep our country free. And I'm with you all the way Troy, this is the extent of my 2 cents on this subject.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A word to all... no matter what side of this heated debate you choose to side with don't get caught with your head in the sand. THE DRUNKEN COWBOY WHO SHOOTS FROM THE HIP is gonna bomb the Irainian gaurd, and its not gonna be a walk in the park this time. Were all gonna feel the pain big time. Keep your tanks and your pantrys full. Honestly I hope were (JEE, Piper, and I) are way over estimateing this terrible chain of events that are about to unfold. This is not a Y2K. BE READY...
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:25 am    Post subject: Dang Reply with quote

Well, I guess it was not meant to be .. I wrote a message and I hit a key and it went off in to cyber space and so I wrote another and it just took off so guess it was not meant to be tonight ... .. so I will try again ..
at a latter date. maybe someone out there needed to read it LOL

I will leave a little message for who ever decides for us ..Do we need to keep this topic going ??? I say yes we do because ..the answer is below ..

I feel we need to post and share because we are in this mess together..

we are in quick sand and we are going down fast ...
Some of us need to release our stress and tension and also we can learn from each other .. So think on this please ..

~~Conniefaye~~
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doug miller
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee, how did you know that I went to Neiman-Marcus? Problem is, they wouldn't let me in. Said they were having a big "Welcome to the Club" party for Bill and Hillary to celebrate their first $100,000,000 in earnings. John and Theresa Heinz were there along with Nancy Pelosi, John Edwards and some other members of the Hundred Million Dollar Club (Bush and Cheney are pretty well off but were not rich enough to be invited.) Bill got a special award for convincing the mainstream media to play up all the money he and Hill gave to Charity and to downplay the fact that they put almost all of it into a "charity" that Bill and Hill control. Those Clintons never stop thinking. I was hoping that John Edwards, as a fellow law man, would let me join the party. But he said the party wasn't for working-man type lawyers but only Plaintiff's lawyers who made their fortune with junk science. He had a good laugh with some other guys about the whole asbestos thing. Anyway, I never did get in to buy anything. They said my second home, at 800 square feet, was just too small. But they did say if I knew some people whose cottages were bigger to send them over and that they were always looking for a few more of the rich, liberal elite to hang with. As I left they were having a good laugh about something--all I could hear was "god and guns" and "how much longer are we gonna be able to convince those poor suckers that we care about the workin' man."

By the way, do any of you who are going to vote for Hilary or Barack have any thoughts on Barack's recent comments? I gotta tell you, he scares me more and more. Although a lot of the media focused on the part of his comment where he said that small town folk cling to their guns and their religion, it was the next thing he said that I thought was the real news--he said that they have antipathy toward people different than themselves. that is, he said they were bigots. Now because that sounds a bit like what his pastor has been preaching about a lot of Americans for 20 years, it makes it seem like maybe Barack was, in fact, listening to his pastor's hateful comments. Now, I don't expect anyone to vote for McCain, but it seems like the Dem contest is becoming a question of who is the least worst candidate. Any thoughts?
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