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Ron Paul
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That interview with Walker by an imposter was great. It shows what the governor is all about. He is in bed with the Koch Brothers. that is big oil and big everything. I have a good friend who was one of the protesters He is a local 130 guy and he told me there is a lot of non union workers there now. He said this is going to effect everyone in Wisconsin and there gearing up for a big fight. He told my buddy that we all need to get together non-union and union and walk out of our jobs for a week shut everything down. If Walkers trys to lay off workers.
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He told my buddy that we all need to get together non-union and union and walk out of our jobs for a week shut everything down


I guess I am missing the point here - The state is going broke and this is going to help???

Kevin - I know you well enough that you would have done good in life no matter what - Union or not - because you are not scared to work and have used your money wisely - but there is too much corruption in Unions in our area that most her feel the best way to make a better income is keep the $$$ you would have given the Union -

A very good friend of mine just retired a couple of years agon and had a very nice pension set up with the union he belonged to - When he retired, he found out that someone had abscounded with the whole thing and left him with $000 and now way to collect it!!! - I guess in are area the Unions are doing more harm than good and are getting a real bad name for themselves
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject: RP Reply with quote

Ok, right guy, I'm rich. I worked hard. I planned ahead. I saved.

And attacking unions, public worker's pay and benefits will help you how?

Good set of statistics, Right Guy. I do not dispute your list.

What do you suggest public workers should do?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject: No Answers Reply with quote

Right Guy, I have offered several questions in my posts.

Answer at least one question I have posted. I'm interested in your position.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To give you some props for being an educator I would separate Education from the rest. Then I would sit back and see who comes up with a plan I like and support them. I'm not expecting any plan to be perfect. Not much else I can do.
Gotta run now and find some solar panels and a windmill to charge my Volt.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:51 pm    Post subject: RP Reply with quote

Wow, 'props' for being a teacher! I feel so uplifted!

Let me see here...you would separate educators from the rest of the public workers. What, the rest of public workers deserve something different?

I don't need an answer.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron It doesn't matter if you are union or non union When you have a governor trying to take away your bargining rights. If it wasn't for the unions you the non union workers wouldn't be making as much an hour as they are. And there wouldn't be such a thing as a 40 hr work week' Or time and a half. If there was no unions the wages would be very low for every working person. And corperate america would just get richer and that is what they are trying to do.

The republicians want to get rid of social security medicare and medicade and the unions. And give the wealthies americans for tax breaks. The Koch brothers is behing this and that is big business.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:46 am    Post subject: RP Reply with quote

What people do not get about this WI battle is that it is NOT public workers that have caused this financial crisis. If it was, then all Americans would have to sacrifice with a smile on their face. But this crisis was created by the Federal Government, The Federal Reserve, and now this campaign to attack the public sector comes from the richest Americans.

Right Guy likes to cut and paste statistics. Look at this chart and see who REALLY is overpaid and undertaxed in this country:

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Ron I no some guys that retired from a company that had over 100 employees and they sold out just before these guys retired. And they took there the retirment funds with them. NON-UNION They tried to fight it but in the end got nothing. All I know about unions that they train you annually and the same companys that are not union do not train. And yes we get more money an hour and our health care is great and we get a good retirement. And we get a 2 weeks paid vacation a year. And if you don't do your job you loose it. They are all trained and you don't have to work with a bunch of rookys. When I was with Ryba marine out of Cheboygan, I had rookys on the tug with me all the time. And half of them didn't even no how to tie a line. And the epuipment was scary that doesn't happen union. I like to know I have experiense with me when I'm traveling 420 mi accross lake superior with 3 barges in tow.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject: USA problem Reply with quote

...and you thought the money shortage was caused by public workers...


"The $3 in my wallet is more than ExxonMobil, GE and Bank of America paid in taxes last year, combined," said Carl Gibson, founder of the first American Uncut group, US Uncut Mississippi, in a release prior to the February 26 protests.

Read the article here:

http://www.truth-out.org/us-uncuts-anti-austerity-protests-start-small-strong-against-bank-america68108
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am glad all of you are back on again ..... It was pretty lonely and boring on here for a very long time .. At least the island lovers are talking to each other again Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:45 am    Post subject: WI BS Reply with quote

WI journalist imply that public workers there are getting something they do not deserve, mmmmmm. Republicans hate facts...gets in the way of their agendas...

Here's the truth:

"Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages as pensions when they retire rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services."
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,
Are you saying... Every WI Sate employee has the option of waiving Retirement and Health Ins.. and taking the amount paid by the state for those plans as a cash payment in their pay check each pay period Question If so, please show us where you found that bit of information..
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: WI Reply with quote

Read it here:

http://www.truth-out.org/really-bad-reporting-wisconsin-who-contributes-public-workers-pensions68225
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good read John.. The writer does an excellent job of explaining the accounting practice and principals of TOTAL NEGOTIATED COMPENSATION.. As I see it, WI is asking for some Give back on the negotiated amount, the same as the Auto Industry did with the negotiated contracts with the Unions.. Not taking one side or the other.. Just pointing out that the Unions have given back on Negotiated contract with private industry to keep jobs.. and now WI is asking for the same.
Thanks for the URL Wink
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doug miller
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read some of the link and skimmed some of it and it seemed to me that the writer was acting much like others writing on this issue and trying to spin it. I wish they would all stop the generalities and get specific.

In Michigan, civil service employees who began working for that state after about 1997 have not had the defined benefit plan that Michigan teachers and government employees in other states have. Instead, they have a had a 401k or 457 plan where the state matches the employee's contribution up to a certain percentage.

And the defined benefit plan that the civil service employees who began working for the state before 1997 have is not nearly as good as it is for many other government employees. Specifically, the formula that is used is this: multiply the employee's salary (an average of the employee's last 3 yrs before retiring) times the number of years of service with the state times 1.5%. Many pension plans--including, I think, municipal plans for police officers and others, have a higher percentage factor--up to 2.5 or 3% I believe.

So if a state employee under the defined benefit plan worked 30 years and averaged $50,000 a year for the last 3 years, they would receive a monthly pension of about $22,500 per year or around $1900 a month.

That same employee would make twice that amount, or$45,000 a year if he worked for an entity with a 3% factor.

It seems to me that the pension with a 1.5% factor is pretty reasonable.

JEE, do you know if the factor is the same for teachers in Michigan?

The state has recently begun to take 3% of a state employee's salary and, in theory, keep it to help pay for the employee's medical insurance in retirement. But there is no guarantee that is what they will do with the money. Also, I am not sure it makes sense to take a percentage of salary because it means that the person making $60,000 a year will pay $1800 for the same thing that a person making $30,000 a year will pay only $900 for--twice as much for the same medical benefit. In any case, a court has held that the state had no constitutional authority to take the 3%--it is the Civil Service Commission that does, and so we have to see what will happen.

I think all of us in Michigan need to share in the pain. I think we--especially my fellow conservatives--need to be realistic about what we expect government to provide and then bite the bullet in order to pay for it. Just this morning as I was driving on slippery roads because of an inch of snow that fell last night, I thought "I wish these roads were plowed and salted but it probably costs a tremendous amount of money every time the plows and salt trucks are sent out. But it is a cost we must pay." Just so, I want police and firefighters in my city, I want to have state parks, and I would like to ensure that when there are hazardous waste spills, they are quickly cleaned up. It all costs money and, if we do not pay, we will learn what it is to live in a 2nd or 3rd world country.

I am certain there is waste in government. But in my experience it is, at least at the state level, exagerrated. I think private companies would struggle to do the work many state employees and public school teachers do every day given the same staffing levels and appropriations. In part that is because many simply do not have any idea just how much is expected of state employees--heck, it can be a full time job responding to FOIA requests and calls from legislators about unhappy constituents! I am kidding, but it is simply true that there is a great deal of work that must be done in government that those outside are simply not aware of.

Concerning unionizing government employees, I do think there is a real question as to whether it is a good practice. At the state level, for example, it seems to me the civil service commission is there to protect civil service employees. And for other government entities, I tend to agree with FDR and even some old time union leaders that it is not good policy to unionize government workers because, first, they work for the people of the state and not a profit making company and so are not likely to be exploited, and (2) more importantly, it is problematic to have unions spending huge amounts of money on elections so they can, in essence, elect the bosses who are going to decide how much the union's members make. That means that the union can tell the elected officials to pay them what they want or face the wrath of the union in the next election. That seems like a bad idea. And i seems like a recipe for--well, the very thing that many state and local governments all of the US are discovering--huge liabilities because of pay packages that, in some places, were simply too large.

Last question--I have wondered how it is that union leaders for the auto workers did not--30 or 40 years ago--protect the interests of their members by ensuring that the pensions were fully or even mostly funded. I was shocked to learn that these pension benefitss, which the union members fought hard for, were not protected by the union reps. That seems like a huge failing on the part of the union bosses.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to say "AMEN" doug on the subject of the UNION and the auto employees. And not just where were they 30-40 years ago, but even right now. Especially with the retirees.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can all give back. No argument.

As soon as all corporations pay taxes like the MIDDLE CLASS, and our FEDERAL GOVERNMENT collects taxes from the richest MFrs on earth, and our FEDERAL GOVERNMENT quits with the foreign welfare, and quits with the subsidies, as soon as they do that, we should then cut into the middleclasses wallets.

WHEN, that happens I will be the first to take a cutback, pay state taxes, whatever. But this incredible debt problem WAS NOT caused by public workers getting something that wasn't theirs, or was not deserved!

Doug, I cannot answer your questions without doing some delving into it.

I believe therre are faults with unions. But NO BARGAINING POWER is wrong!

Let's see the richest mfrs open their wallets first...only makes sense.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:36 am    Post subject: WI Reply with quote

America is not Broke!

Read this:

"Today just 400 Americans have the same wealth as half of all Americans combined."

Doug, is that an "exaggeration"?

Listen and watch this:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/america-is-not-broke
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People acquire wealth in different ways. It bothers me greatly that the people in the business of selling money--whether certain bankers, traders of stocks and bonds, etc--make unconscionably high amounts of money for doing so. That is a huge problem.

On the other hand, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Sam Walton huge amounts of money the old fashioned way--they earned it (as the old commercial put it). I think they deserve the money they earned. And I think it is terribly counterproductive to try to take a larger percentage of their income than they do mine.

We need to give job creators like Gates and Jobs etc an incentive to excel. In the same way we need to give smaller job creators and doctors and engineers an incentive to excel. And one way you do that is by letting them keep a large percentage of the money they earn. It think it will, in the medium and long term, hurt middle class Americans if we tell the Gates and Jobs that we are going to take 40 or 50 or 60% of their earnings. Similarly, telling a young man or woman to work hard in high school so you can get in to a really good college so you can work hard to get into a good medical school so you can do brain surgery (and pay off all those student loans) just so we can take 50% of your earnings and give it to those kids in school who spent their time goofing off is a very bad policy.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Doug, sort of... but there are apples and oranges.

Those that work hard, play by the rules and are motivated to have a "better life" should be rewarded. You know... people that are actually productive in what they do... and if they are successful in an enterprise and highly successful financially as a result, then give something back. Those people would be like Gates, Jobs Walton and a long list of others.

The working class (formerly the middle class) is the backbone of our economy. Guys putting nuts on bolts, driving trucks, doctors, lawyers etc that provide services or "something" of lasting value.... Even if that "something" is cultural.

When 400 have amassed the wealth equal to 150+ million working individuals and are sitting there figuring out ways to get even more? Isn't there something wrong what this picture? Gates etal weren't born with 50 golden spoons in their mouths.

How much money is enough money to live the most opulent lifestyle imaginable? A million is chump change. A billion is getting there. 10s of billions? Why should they give some of it back unless they have to?

Ask Donny Trump what his net worth is? He wouldn't know. A Paltry few billion I am sure depending on who crunches his numbers. What exactly does he do to justify his existence? What does he contribute? EXACTLY. I made it half way through a Trump autobiography before I puked on his arrogance. What a self absorbed jerk (off).

The next parasite level below are the bankers and financiers that make up rules as they go along, and shuffle numbers to the tune of obscene profits at the expense of those that work. Total parasites that contribute very little. I am not saying we don't need the service of bankers but where it the edge here? What do they contribute and how much are those service worth to everyone but them?

At the expense of sounding like a communist or socialist or some sort of "ist", there has to be some fair and reasonable way to redistribute wealth in this country. Enough is enough, however you made it.

A Forrest Gumpism " A man can only use so much money... and everything else is just show-off" Or something to that effect.

Money is power. And now we are full circle, aren't we?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:49 pm    Post subject: WI Reply with quote

Like boats on a dry ocean front, when the tide comes in, all of the boats are lifted up together.

Isn't that a nice analogy which describes the corporate CEOs. The money comes in like a tide and all the employees also are lifted up and enjoy the benefits of that tide.

Unfortunately, in reality, the only people lifted seem to be the 400!

Doug, I would never want the legitimate, "earned it the old fashioned way", rich people to pay MORE than their fair share...but at least pay their fair share! I AM all for ending the tax breaks, the subsidies, etc. Many of the largest corporations use those "tax breaks" to send lobbyists to DC to get more legislation that makes them even richer AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MIDDLE CLASS. That I do not like. Union leaders that use strong arm tactics is equally wrong. But ending negotiations isn't the answer.

I am not attacking the rich. Bless their souls! But when the "400" finance the media and elected government personnel to bleed more from those who NEVER CAUSED a financial crash, then it is wrong.

Teachers are beholding to those they teach, to their parents, and to the tax payers. If those people do not hold them accountable, then who's fault is that?

I keep hearing this: "Unions protect bad employees." I'm sure it is true. But the real reason public workers like unions is so that good, solid workers are protected from petty bosses that may have an ax to grind. If a very diligent worker irks his superior, does that merit being fired? I think not.

Listen to Michael Moore. Find in his speech the part you disagree with most. I would be interested in that point of view.

Doug, I hate both parties. And I know that you lean very hard toward one. Stop the leaning, and look at these parties as if they are both total criminals, and then you will see things differently.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jee:

I have known some really good men and women who worked as State Representatives, State Senators, Judges, etc.

But when you combine term limits with a big bureacracy and the fact that people really do disagree about some issues, the system does not always work very well.

Even Ron or Rand Paul would find themselves stymied by the system and would only accomplish a small portion of their goals. Just look at how many on the left have turned on Obama .

I do think the concentration of wealth in the bank accounts of a very few is, with a few exceptions, disgusting. I read about a hedge fund manager who made, I think, over a billion dollars last year. He could only do so because there is something fundamentally wrong with how people in the financial services industry are financially rewarded.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hedge fund managers are nothing but legitimized bookies. Parasites filling their pockets because they are legally allowed to.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:21 pm    Post subject: RP Reply with quote

I like only one politician and that is Ron Paul. He is pro-life. I am pro-choice. He believes in god. I do not. But when it comes to running the federal government, those are non-issues. Ron believes that according to the constitution, the federal gov. should have nothing to say about abortion or religion. I agree. Roe vs. Wade is out. And I am pro-choice.

I love the argument you made that it would be difficult for Ron Paul to get agreement and support for his platform. Which president does not have that same problem? By the way, if the people support his platform then that is all it will take.

AT LEAST, RON PAUL HAS WALKED THE WALK. I will not repeat his attributes. But to actually shift courses in this country we need a leader that practices what he preaches...which he has done for his entire political career.

Who is promoting cutting back on Foreign Welfare? Who is promoting cutting back on our foreign occupations? Who is promoting the end of corporate tax break welfare? Who is calling for an end to our militarism? Certainly not the MSM or either party candidate. That's why we need his voice. Mention any other republican candidate and I just have to laugh first and gag right after.

I'm ranting now....later!
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