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Sand Bay, Public Access or Private Property???
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:31 am    Post subject: Sand Bay, Public Access or Private Property??? Reply with quote

[edit]This is a continuation of a discussion I split from the "old dock on ebay" post. Please be on your best behaviour and voice your views, thoughts, opinions, comments. Rob[/edit]

islendbird wrote:
According to oldtimer history at one time the twp. was thinking about letting the road go but it was voted down . so perhaps it is in old records on road ownership? Time to check it out so it does not go the way of Sandbay. which by the way was transferred to an Emmet county court and possibly the judge would still listen to letters from locals? State has ruled on the high water mark so people cannot be kicked off the beach.


I haven't gone back to Sand Bay in years... Didn't want to invade anyone's privacy, and I wasn't sure what the status of the public/private access was. Is it currently possible for the public (i.e., me) to visit Sand Bay beach?

D.
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joe
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the folks that live at sand bay would like everyone to believe that the road is private and we can no longer use it. In fact they went to court to try to have it made private, and ....they lost. They have since encroached on the road to such an extent that it is a little tough to get through and most people don't try. If this continues they will have won, as the road is quickly becoming overgrown from non-use. I'd hate to see access lost to a place my family used a lot as a kid. That and the principle bothers me, the whole idea of keeping the public off of what the public properly owns. There's a lot of that thinking in regards to stream access, especially in the west, and it really rubs me wrong. Therefore I would encourage anyone who hasn't been to sand bay in a while and would like to see it again to drive right on down what's left of the road. If anyone tries to buffalo you off the place, stand your ground and let them know you know how the court ruled.
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Troy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a member of this site that owns land there and he bought it so it would not be bought by someone that would keep people from coming down there. But as Dan stated because it is largley private now, people think they can't go down there. Thats just what these other people would like you to believe. I will let him speak up if he would like to add to this discussion.
The road and right where it ends at the water is still public. The beach is being overgrown by grass now though, since is used less frequently.
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Rosemary
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So sad. Sad

Public is public....they shouldn't be able to get away with it!!!!
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Al'sOtherSister
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Susieand I took pics and asked questions on the supposed condos at the airport. They are only hangers that are private being built and not actual condos for people. I would have to have my brother address the road issue at Sand Bay...I will see if I can contact him.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:00 am    Post subject: yes .. Reply with quote

I agree with you Joe

Go for it all of you !!

I hate to see it lost ..

So many new people do not know its there .....
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The road to Sand Bay is still public but restricted.. I'm not sure of all the restrictions except I know you can't park on it.. Mike has all the answers if anyone wants to e-mail him.. I know the restrictions by themselves make the road about unuseable.. Lisa is right about the condos at the airport.. The condos are for the planes and are basically big pole barns most of you have seen already.. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:35 am    Post subject: sand bay Reply with quote

just to let some of the people out there know that sand bay is not public, and the lawsuit has not been settled, this is a fact not a rumor. just because people have used something for years doesn't automatically make it public. Even if the county does get use of the private road the only thing people can use will be the width that they agree on for the road.
This doesn't mean you can wonder all over somebody elses property. This property has been private for years you people have just been TRESPASSING . i would like to know where the info came from that sand bay is all public and you all can use it, because you are all sadly mistaken.
Joe i would also like to know how people are encroaching on property that they have clear title to , until the court rules this is a mute point.

Public is Public so lets use the public land, not private.

Jeff and Sheila Godbold
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you say Jeff.... It is restricted until settled. That we know for sure.. Sand Bay Beach Front is public to the highest water mark. We know that too.. Not everyone who live at Sand Bay agree with the private stance and that is why it is in court... Some remember how public that beach once was.. With a community and rail lines and dock and post office even..

Property we live on had encroachment problems because of mistakes made in the titling long before I was born.. Stuff happens and we in the here and now suffer for it. Always remember the respect and fondness I hold for you and yours. I just don't agree... I do know how it feels to be up against ,it seems like, the entire world. I will respect the ultimate outcome.

In the meantime.. Part of this outcome will be judged on how often the road in question is used by the public.. The more it is used the better it will be for the public use side.. Know the restrictions though.. It is soooo restricted right now the only thing you can do is drive on it.. No parking, stopping or staring..
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff, I don't think anyone was planning to "wander all over someone else's property". I certainly wasn't. I was just curious about its current status, and the last thing I want to do is trespass. I'm always respectful of others' land because I would expect them to respect mine as well.

Sorry to rattle yet another hornet's nest.
Dan
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jeff
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan you didn't rattle our hornets nest by any means.

It is a very sore subject and getting very OLD! 15 YEARS TO BE EXACT!!!!!

That is how long its been in court and still not settled.

The Mackinac County Road Commission has spent more tax payers money on this lawsuit than the property could have been purchased for when it was for sale in 1993.

In addition, the Albers's have also spent, out of their own pocket, more money than the lots could have purchased for in 1993. So, in essence, they have and are purchasing the property TWICE!

They are standing up for what they believe in and protecting their property rights, which so many don't!

If some people have purchased property so that the public can "always" use it, then the public can use there land.

The Albers don't have a problem with people walking the beach as long as you respect their rights and ask if they can do so. Those that have asked and let them know they would like to go down there have never been refused access, however, those that go down to Sand Bay and demand access and are disrespectful will get an earful.

Treat people as you wish to be treated.

In regards to the highwater mark, I believe that allows you the walk the beach, not "camp" out all day long in front of someone's house. Walking the beach is far different than sitting down there all day and partying all night! This is where the problem has come in.

You wouldn't believe the messes people have left by both themselves and their pets.

The island is growing, accept it or not, with more people there will be more problems-without a doubt!

If you feel stongly about something make sure you stand up for it and be totally truthful about the issue.

If you care so much about the island and its progress, quit b-tching about it and get on a board. Attend the meetings, watch the postings in the news paper online and then respond. You people need to keep in touch and not stand back until its too late.

Both, Jeff & Sheila have sat on these boards and filled in when needed, we have paid our dues, now its your turn.

All of you know, no matter what we discuss, it can all turn into a hornets nest because someone has a deep emotion about it somewhere and will need to vent.

Hope eveyone has a great Labor Day Weekend!

Jeff & Sheila Godbold
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff/Shiela, AMEN to everything you have said. I agree 150% You both also have a great Holiday weekend.
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Troy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff said, "Joe i would also like to know how people are encroaching on property that they have clear title to , until the court rules this is a mute point."

They are encroaching on the road by blocking it, acting as if they own it and harrassing people that are using it. Harrassing people that have a right and permission to use it to visit home owners at Sand Bay. By doing this, they are causing problems with people they should have no problems with. Are you telling me they have a clear title to the road, that is what Joe was refering to?[/quote]
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Uncle Steve
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:48 pm    Post subject: Facts just Facts Reply with quote

Very Happy Read the FACTS.. Below
http://www.michbar.org/opinions/appeals/2000/071400/7611.html
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I do know that they will be just as polite and giving as the next person. Good people! If I had bought and paid for this property I too would have the right to say who is on it or who isn't. And as for the messes that are left behind by people and their pets.... Would these kind of messes be left in your own back-front yards? I would hope not. Why is this getting stirred up again anyhow? Give it a rest!
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jeff
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the road is not blocked off and a matter of fact ask the people that live there to see there title insurance because as it is right now most of them do not have a means of ingress or egress to there property. but the road to the houses has never been a problem other than the width. nobody is stopping you or anybody else from visting the other houses at sand bay unless you are driving down the beach to get there.

jeff
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ambs
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

....so you're saying driving down the beach is a bad thing. gotcha.


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Troy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know people that have been stopped while driving on the road and they are told it is a private drivway and they can no longer use it.

And yes, it has been blocked at times!
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not going to plop a bunch of personal opinions into this "discussion"...

I do have a couple questions.

I thought that there was a recent court decision which concluded and permitted public access to great lakes beaches (to the high water mark,only)? I have not been able to find anything on the net which supports this.

I did find quite a lengthy document on the mi.gov site regarding public use of waterways, trespass etc. Scroll down to Part O, #1-2 which seems to indicate "a riparian land owner controls and may block or otherwise prevent tresspass" accross beach front below the high water mark. Or in other words, walk in the water, only.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_15383-31738--,00.html

You-all figure it out.

C


(excerpted from the above>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>)
O. Boundary Lines of Riparian Property Owners

1. Generally

The Great Lakes and many of the large inland lakes and streams were meandered when the state was originally surveyed; that is, the survey line in general paralleled the water's edge and the water area was not included in the land description. The courts have held that the meander line is not a line of demarcation between public and private rights, but merely a line arbitrarily established by the survey to determine the area of land in government ownership. Therefore, as was previously discussed, the property line will likely run to the center of the watercourse.



2. Great Lakes and Lake St. Clair

The boundary line is the ordinary high water mark. The riparian owner controls the exposed soil between the ordinary high water mark and the water's edge and may, therefore, prevent the public from trespassing on this exposed soil if he so chooses. The public does, however, have a right of passage in any area adjacent to riparian land covered by water. OAG, 1977-78, No. 5327, p. 518, (July 6, 1978).

A riparian owner owns to the ordinary high water mark but controls and has exclusive use of the exposed soil between the ordinary high water mark and the water's edge. Donohue v Russell, 264 Mich. 217; 249 NW 830 (1933). The ordinary high water mark is set by statute through Part 325, 1994 PA 451, Great Lakes Submerged Land, MCL 324.32501 et seq; MSA 13A.32501 et seq. Submerged lands above the ordinary high water mark are subject to the right of navigation.
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Troy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis

Just to be clear, I am not talking about the beach, I can understand someone being upset about other people using their beach. I am talking about the road that leads down to the beach and other person's houses. The road is being encroached on, blocked and certain a certain property owner is trying to tell people this road is now their own private driveway.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troy,

I read the court summary: Pretty much seemed to go around in a circle to square one. I believe the summary ended with (paraphrased)" settle this out of court if you are smart"

I really don't know who all is involved in this nor is it really any of my business and based on this, really don't have any opinions as far as Sand Bay road. I am staying out of it. Rolling Eyes

I do know there have been issues around home where private landowners have tried (unsucessfully) to physically block (or otherwise petition to have closed) public roads. These would be county roads which are unmaintained and pretty much two tracks down section lines etc. Mostly because of tresspass issues with hunters, snomobiles etc. Same thing is happening with abandoned R.R.grades. Dropped trees, ditches, fences gates. Get torn down as fast as they go up.

There have been other issues with undeeded easements to landlocked parcels etc. Access that has grandfathered for decades. And then gets challenged when property changes hands.

What I do know is if it goes to court, it goes nowhere. Once a road or easement exists over time, getting it closed is nearly impossible. The county has final say if it is a platted public road. If an undeeded easement, All the adjacent property owners have to be on the same page. Good luck.

Around Burt and Mullet lakes, there are dozens of these old lake access easements which were surveyed in decades ago, Some of which exist only on the maps however were never abandoned or assigned to adjacent landowners. All of a sudden, some guy drives through the flowerbed to launch his boat and it all hits the fan and off to court it goes.

Another one: Landowner on a "local" river has a pretty little island in front of his cottage. 40-50 years ago, a previous owner built a nice little bridge to it. Kept it mowed and cleaned up with a picnic table. DNR never said anything to him about the bridge. Grandfathered in, maybe, back from the days you could do that sort of thing and get by with it. Who cared?

Things were fine until canoers started camping on the island (which is below the rivers high water mark, and ownership of the island not included in a property description) and building camp fires on it. So torqued landwoner posts it "keep off" and then tried to evict canoers.

And then the sheriff and DNR get involved. Last I heard he was fined $100 for each sign and ordered to remove the bridge as it "impeded river navigation". He refused so the DNR was going to do it for him and send him the bill... and tear his yard to shreds with a backhoe and dumptruck in the process.

Wouldn't he have been wiser to put in a fire pit, garbage can and "please keep it clean" sign on the can... And let the canoers enjoy it as they had every right to do? And enjoyed the overnight canoers, as well? For some reason, I think the canoers will continue using the island, anyway, bridge or not.

The above may or may not be a parallel to the sand bay road situation. I have no idea and this isn't the my point. My point is "where things can go".

All I do know is that what goes around, comes around. Get involved in this sort of thing and it goes direct to no-win for all involved.
C
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joe
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say Jeff that I have no sympathy for the money your inlaws have spent on this lawsuit. If it wasn't for thier own beligerence there wouldn't be a lawsuit to begin with and the rest of us could still be enjoying sand bay the way we used to. And if you want honesty in these discussions then I think you'd have to start by admitting that they HAVE misrepresented this many times to many people by claiming the road was private, informing people--on the road--that they were tresspassing and demanding pretty agressively that they leave. Is this the earful you promise is in store? I do sympathize about the partying all night part as some of that goes on by us as well. I haven't resorted to it but I would imagine a phone call to Whipple could put a stop to it. As for people walking the beach and perhaps sitting down for a while I think a little patience is not too much to ask. This whole thing is out of hand when it is offensive to have unsightly non beach owning folk strolling by on land--below high water mark--that they technically have every right to use. And God forbid they pause to pick up beach glass(stealing I suppose) or take in the view. I say again that people should continue to use the road. And if we can't park then turn around, go to the main road, park there and walk back down to a very nice beach.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:59 pm    Post subject: yes Reply with quote

Yes ... Troy is so right .. It has been blocked at times .. I seen it !...
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cal'sangel9
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree with joe and the islandgirl. sand bay is to be enjoyed by all islanders. since i'm still a teenage, i've only been there a couple of times...and when i was there, it is one of the most beautiful sites on/from the island...so why take that away from the islanders??? last year i do remember going down the road with my grandfather and friend, and coming across somebody's 40 foot rv taking up 3/4's of the road...luckily we were on atv's so we just went on through...even though getting dirty looks and comments on the way. my grandpa's been going up for 51 years now, and they want to tell him he can't access that area??? come on people. we've had tourists/neighbors/passer-by's go on our beach and stop and look, and say hello, and we could care less, we enjoy seeing other people enjoy what we have come to love, so why take that away. i say like joe and others have said, step aside and let people look, let them enjoy what the island has to offer.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:24 pm    Post subject: on Reply with quote

Right on Cal !!
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