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Sand Bay, Public Access or Private Property???
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bbislandgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I have a house on Sand Bay road, which yes, is private. However, there is a part of the road and beach that is public. When you turn onto the road and drive past the first house, Albers' (very nice people) there is a small driveway leading to the beach. This is the public access and public beach. All the beach to the left of the road is private to the waters edge, as well as the woods. About 10 feet past this public access road is the continuing part of Sand Bay road where you'll see there are 2 signs, one of which says " PRIVATE ROAD " and the other says " COUNTY ROAD ENDS " which I'd say, clearly states that the road is indeed private. And I don't understand what the big issue is with the road? Why do you all want to drive down it anyway? All there is are houses, there are no other public beach accesses or campsites or picnic areas, just trees, dirt, and houses containing people who enjoy peace and quiet and the beauty of their private property. Someone please fill me in on the desire to be on the private part of the road. I don't get it. And one more thing, exactly how long have you all been swimming and "growing up" at Sand Bay because it has been private for quite some time, so you were tresspassing if it was anytime in the recent years. At least 15. Fill me in someone! That's all I have for now!


~Lauren~
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been going to Sand Bay on a public road for 46 years.. Bet Grandma Su knows a ton of history about Sand Bay, Lauren.. Ask her about all the beach parties before you were born.. Very Happy Check out the historical society and ask Cayla's Uncle Mike for more information.. You would be astonished..
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bbislandgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm not saying that it was never public because I haven't been around forever and I don't know that for sure but I am saying what I know for a fact and that is that part of the road and beach is private to the water's edge. This I know for a fact.


~Lauren~
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:46 pm    Post subject: what Reply with quote

Sand Bay was a wonderful place for many many years for all of us to enjoy ....

It makes me sad now to see that it is not being used and all the grass has grown up ... and alot of the new people for a long time now does not even know it is there ..
Its a shame that such a nice place is not being used ....

My cousin Mike and I went down to the beach with his doggie .... when i was there in Aug .... it does not look the same .. what a shame ..
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joe
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This constant claiming that this or that stretch of beach is "private to the waters edge" points to exactly what I am getting at here. It's just more arrogant overstating of landowner rights. The road is public and leads to a public access which gets the public onto the beach. If the public then stays below the high water mark (which by the way is a lot of area with the water at a historic low) and does not cause trouble, then said public is within its legal rights. If this comes to a head perhaps we should organize a public beach party at the end of the road to celebrate our rights. I believe some on this site have been looking for a place to jam. Can you say clam bake?By the way bbislandgirl I think you are talking about part of the road beyond where the access is. I'm sure it's nice down there, but I'm not talking about that area. As for how long we've been using sand bay beach--I personally have been using it for 40 years and my family has been using it for more like 70-75. And no, we were not then nor are we now "tresspassing" as we always kept to the beach. I guess our big violation was parking our truck at the end of the road. This allowed us the opportunity to walk for hours on the shore, look for beach glass and drift wood, skip stones, swim and otherwise make ourselves unwelcome. The island sure didn't feel like anybody's private compound back in those days.
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Troy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer your question Lauren, I like to use the road to visit friends that live there. Is that okay? I would like to do this without being harrassed and without having to use an ATV to get past the portion of the road in front of Alber's.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree .. I think we should have a party there .. of course I may not be there to join in unless its this next summer I may be there then ...


Its been a long time coming .. this has been going on for years .. and the beach shows it too by the over growth ..
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cal'sangel9
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think a partay sounds swell!!! of course i'm in europe so it'll have to be next year also...i dont know who's house is who's near sandbay, but i agree with anyone else who has to leave their vehicle to get by some certain person's home. like i said before, how 'bout they allow us all to enjoy it and just leave us alone, i'm sure anyone else not living on/by sandbay would be happy to see visitors...even the sandbayer's....the island is for all, so let's all enjoy it.
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jeff
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think before you plan your next "beach party" at Sand Bay you should ALL wait for the final court ruling to come down from the court system. It is still in negotiations.

I think its funny that there is thousands of acres of State land and beach front just as nice as Sand Bay and you all are hell bent on getting down to Sandy Bay.

Mr. Albers has been coming to the island since 1952 ( so no he is not a "newcomer" to the island) and has known the Sand Bay land owners there for some time. During this period has always been told over all these years that Sand Bay was private, no public access.

This could have been settled out of court 15 years ago, it was the Mackinac County Road Commission and the Bois Blanc Township(who agreed with the road commission) to take this to court. So you can thank the road commission and the township for spending your money "wisely" and not settling out of court. The Albers' reacted to the lawsuit from the Mackinac County Road Commission, they did not start the lawsuit. Your politicians at work!!!!!

This will be the first of these situations, as the island grows in population and density, these situations are going to continue to arise. There are people just waiting the out come of this trial and there will be more. It is only bound to happen.

As of right now the law is a property owned on the Great Lakes can kick people off their beach unless their feet are wet in the water. If a new ruling came down, the show it to us.

If there becomes an access to the beach at Sand Bay all you people can use is the width of that easement.

Just wait til Sand Bay becomes developed..............................then what?

Condos, mobile home park, trailer park!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? The list is endless!

Jeff & Sheila Godbold
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in no way taking sides. I am in no way endorsing trespassing. I am in no way endorsing encroachment.

I have been following this. I posted this info earlier. Whether or not the public can use the beach, or how much of it, if/after legally getting there, somehow seems relevent?

I was under the impression that the court had recently made some ruling to the effect that beach area below the high water mark was accessable to the public. I did not find any information/laws/ruling to this effect. What I found was to the contrary.

Quote:
As of right now the law is a property owned on the Great Lakes can kick people off their beach unless their feet are wet in the water. If a new ruling came down, the show it to us.

If there becomes an access to the beach at Sand Bay all you people can use is the width of that easement.


Law:
Quote:
2. Great Lakes and Lake St. Clair

The boundary line is the ordinary high water mark. The riparian owner controls the exposed soil between the ordinary high water mark and the water's edge and may, therefore, prevent the public from trespassing on this exposed soil if he so chooses. The public does, however, have a right of passage in any area adjacent to riparian land covered by water. OAG, 1977-78, No. 5327, p. 518, (July 6, 1978).


Source: Michigan Laws pertaining to trespass and riparian rights on navigable streams, rivers, lakes.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_15383-31738--,00.html Lengthy document, scroll down to section O, part 2

Unless this law has been revised and updated since 1978... and IF the road is public and does extend as an access to the waters edge, then the public would legally only be entitled to use the width of the easement (as would be the same in using a public launch ramp).

Research isn't my strong suit. If there has been a revision of this law, I guess this would be the time. I have emailed the DNR. They usually take 3-5 days to respond. See what they have to say?

C
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just out this year because of the low water.. Established public to the highest water mark.. To sit on all day if you want.... You don't have to get your feet wet if you don't want to.. And as I said before.. The road access remaining public is contigent on use.. It has to be used to show that the public uses it and this is an important access to the public.. Sand Bay has always been private from the access road south. Or at Mike's property.. The beach in front of those homes is Public to the high water mark.. The water is still lower than normal..
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al's Sister wrote:
Just out this year because of the low water.. Established public to the highest water mark.. To sit on all day if you want.... You don't have to get your feet wet if you don't want to.. And as I said before.. The road access remaining public is contigent on use.. It has to be used to show that the public uses it and this is an important access to the public.. Sand Bay has always been private from the access road south. Or at Mike's property.. The beach in front of those homes is Public to the high water mark.. The water is still lower than normal..


I stand corrected!

You are correct. Law was just recently amended.
This does include only great lakes shoreline and does permit pedestrian access to the high water mark.

Detroit news:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/editorial/0508/07/A11-270007.htm

Court opinion url deleted/page with problem
Summary of same:
http://dirt.umkc.edu/AUG2005/DD_08-17-05_1.htm

I should have dug a little deeper before I posted anything. Whoops/sorry.

C
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Last edited by Conis on Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:19 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't responding to you, Conis.. More to everyone, generally. We posted at almost the same time this morn.. I will have to search some local newspapers for the info.. It is a big deal around T.C. The State needed to re-establish control because of weed removal when the water was sooo low. Threatened the ecological system. Which brought up the public access thing. At Sand Bay, I'm guessing, the mean water line is 5 to 10 feet minimum from the edge of the water on a calm day. You can see the built up edge all along the beach from when the water was abnormally high.. At least 25 ft from the water edge.. Maybe further. That is why I guessed the way I did.. To be conservative, really.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please see edited/revised post above al's sisters.

I found it.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A link for the Record Eagle in T.C.

http://www.record-eagle.com/2005/aug/07edit.htm
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joe
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Conis and Al's sister for doing the research to clear this up. The law is what I had been told it was. So it looks like we can indeed use the beach at sand bay. I'm hopeful that if those of us who do use the beach are respectful of it and treat it like the whole island should be treated then the landowners will respect our right to do so. This could be a delicate balance so I hope we all act nice.
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bbislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer you joe, I am talking about the part of the road that continues after the little public access road. That part is private. I am not saying the entire road and beach are private so don't get angry at me if you think that's what I said. And Troy, to answer you, I didn't say at any time that no one can ever drive down Sand Bay road, I just said that it is private and there are people living down there that enjoy the peace and quiet of their homes. And no, I don't mind, and I think I'm speaking for all the other cottage owners that live on Sand Bay road, if you come down our road to visit. What I mean is that I don't think it's necessary for people to just drive down the private part of the road, because it is an invasion of privacy, and I think that just about everyone would agree that they wouldn't want someone driving down their driveway for no reason at all. And beyond the first public access driveway/road or whatever you want to call it, located just before where Sand Bay road gets private, there are no more public accesses. There are 6 houses on Sand Bay road, 5 of which are on private property. At the end of the road (it's a dead end, another reason for people not to go down it unless necessary) is the Goodin's house, then mine, then Mrs. Devlin's, then Mitchells', then the Whites', and just past the Whites' is where the road gets public and where the public access is located, then the Albers' house. So unless you are visiting one of the 5 private houses I mentioned, then there is no need to go down the private section, whether it be by vehicle, bicycle, or foot because, yes, it is tresspassing. As for everyone wanting to party at Sand Bay, what good will that do anyone besides stir up more trouble and potentially cause even lawsuits (unnecessary but possible)? All that would do is make the people at Sand Bay angrier and cause more fights. Put yourselves in the position of a privte land owner and think how you'd feel if people unnecessarily invaded your property. Not good. However, from the access all the way down to Zela's Point is public, I believe. It may stop and become private somewhere in between there but I think it's public. So perhaps you could do your beach time in that area of Sand Bay??? And if you do, please be aware of the other residents of the bay and respect their peace and privacy. That is all I have to say, besides the fact that I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone or have mean, rhetorical questions thrown at me. Thank you.

~Lauren~

Oh and one more thing Troy, I don't know of any of the people that live on Sand Bay that would come "harrass" you, or anyone, to leave the road. I know I certainly wouldn't, I would just be a little upset that someone would come down the road (and I don't mean to come visit, that's a-ok with me) just to come down it and poke around. If someone has harrassed you when you came down the road, could you please tell me what part of the road it was and who did it? Thanks.
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I myself, think that this whole subject sounds like just maybe someone had some trouble with someone at Sand Bay and now they-he-she are doing nothing but stirring up trouble and maybe this what we could call harrassing. And we all know who is being harrassed. Very childish! Is amazing to me that the ones whom are doing most of the know it all stuff do not even own property at Sand Bay. Don't pay taxes there (Sand Bay), etc. Yes, many have been going down there for years but times do change. It is like here when we use to cut thru the field for short cuts and now there are homes there. Would it be right for us to go ahead and still cut thru their yards just because? No, we do not think so! Why all of a sudden are we worried about Sand Bay? Why is it that one of you do not buy up some property on a beach so you can throw any kind of party you want? Leave these people alone.....
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joe
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to be very clear here. All I'm saying is that the public access remains exactly that--public. So technically all of us do in fact own land at sand bay and therefor have an interest in it. As for the road that continues beyond the access and is private I have no issue there. I agree that I would not want people coming down my own driveway just to gawk. I have a feeling that now that the subject has come up that the access should have a pretty clear sign so that folks who are curious don't accidentally keep going and worsen the problem here. I will not apologize though for pointing out that the public can legally access and enjoy--I hope responsibly--a very nice stretch of island beach. Pretty sure that's not harassment.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:29 pm    Post subject: hi Reply with quote

Squeaky .. its not "All of a sudden" we are worried about sand bay ...

We have been worried for a very long time ......
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of us are attached to Sand Bay thru family who reside there.. We are bewildered about that access not being available to the public as it has always been for as long as I can remember.. It was traditional for our family to go there every visit. Loved sooo much family bought property there. I see the private side of the issue too and am anxious to see some outcome. Although it would benefit Mike in the long run if private; if it remains public' creating an easement will take feet from his property. I still feel that some access should be available to the public. May be opening a pandora's box but there could be a closed sign or dawn to dusk rule that most people would respect.. The longer I think about it..... Private sounds a whole lot better.. Laughing HMMmmmm! I'm blessed with the right connections! Laughing
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joe
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I am pleased that you are blessed with the right connections, I am not. Like you though, sand bay was always part of every trip when I was a child. I was hoping it would be on the agenda when I visit with my children, and so far it looks like it can be. A dawn to dusk rule seems reasonable. I think we're on the same page.
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bbislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your understanding Squeaky. And why are you all worried about Sand Bay? Just cuz there are weeds on the beach? Look at the rest of the beaches! North Shore, Snow Beach, West End, I can keep going you know. And the beach at Sand Bay does get used, in the same place it has been being used for years, which is between Whites' and Mitchells' where the sand is in the water. I use it, my siblings use it, the rest of my family uses it, the Whites' use it, and all the other residents that I know use it and quite frequently. And joe, if you mean there should be a sign where the private section begins, there are 2, that are quite visible.
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bbislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to sound controlling but I do think that it would be nice to have all of Sand Bay become private, or at least sometimes. I also agree that the remaining part should be private some of the day. I think dawn to dusk sounds good because then home owners can enjoy a sunset without the interruption of "beachers". Sounds good to me.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lauren.. I think you are getting off track because we aren't talking about the private part of the road.. It isn't about the weeds either.. Don't worry.

Joe, I'm all for seeing the right thing happen there.. Mike may have some more insight to the legalese of this issue and I hope he adds what he knows.. I will say again, The road needs to be used to show it is wanted and required by the public.. Every time someone asks the Alber's for permission to access the beach just helps the private side of the issue and aids them in making it private. The road is still public but restricted.
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