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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject: DNR Reply with quote

rudy wrote:
... that is no excuse for that kind of behavior..... lack or respect for the DNR, just like Conis... for shame! lol


Ok Rudy Now the gloves are comin off!

Find where I said I didn't respect the DNR! aka Do Nothing Right. Lucky they can do anything at all considering limited manpower and budget. My take is the DNRs justification for existence (according to the State) is to manage state partks and otherwise exploit michigan's "manageable/salable resources" to bring in revenues. Kind of like natural resource pimps? If it belongs to the people of Michigan, leave it to the DNR to somehow sell it, license its use, require a stack of permits. etc. Does anyone have any idea how many kajillion $$$ are reaped from hunting and fishing licences. How much of that is returned to fish stocking and REAL game managemnt... and How much is "overhead".

If there are respect problems, I try not to direct them at the DNR employees, specifically. Victims of higher government policy. Each working long hours without spectacular pay and wearing several hats. Some get frustrated and quit. Others keep going and do the best they can.

Personally, I feel the problems began when the DNR and DEQ were split out of the Mi Dept of conservation. Now we have two bureaucracies, twice the overhead and each half as effective? And the rules have changed, too. Many land use conflicts without clear solutions.

For the record, I know many who have had life careers with the DNR beginning with the Dept of conservation. Some still working, others retired.
Some of what I have been told over a couple of beers, off the record, I would NEVER post on this website.

My Grandfather was a Mi. Conservation Officer (Newago County) in the 40's-50's. Passed down from him, I have a wonderful collection of BW photos and short "stories" written in his own hand, in his logbook which he was required to keep. What a legacy! And how times have changed!

I had thought it might be interesting to some... to scan and post some of these pictures. The conservation officer training camps... Huge sturgeon speared, Buckpoles with monster bucks about the break the pole from weight. Duck hunting, huge stringers of huge fish.

This abundance of game and hunting/fishing opportunity came from an era when "management" amounted to setting seasons and limits... and conservation officers were placed in the field to enforce these new laws.

In this era, poaching was rampant. Landowners didn't appreciate being told what they could do on and/or with "their" land, including game harvesting at will (since the game was on their land, that was theirs, too). A buck License was $0.25. Those revenues paid the CO's wages.

I post this only to bring things into perspective. This is long enough.

C

This post was split from "The winners are" photo topic
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rudy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:52 pm    Post subject: ok, well, it was a joke..... Reply with quote

Laughing
Guess I popped the top on a warm beer there! I'm sorry to misspeak. I guess I had confused dissrespect with frustration! You know, in the last several posts I have read, there has been a lot of nostolgia about the big and plentiful game of the good old days. Anyone want to take a guess at what the population of Michigan was back then.... how about Northern Michigan? I know it was a lot less than it is now. I can only speak from my limited experience.... I'm only 48, but it is a crazy thing driving I-75 these days! And BBI has changed a good bit in the last 10 years. I'm going to guess that 30 years ago there were far fewer people fishing the island lakes. I think that as we get older we tend to over exagerate how good things were... perhaps lumping several great fishing outings into one. I'm not sure that I have a singular point in this monolog except that things change, and from my perspective, when it involves a human population growth, those changes are seldom for the better. DNR, pumping lakes, trash, old cars and trailers, ferry service, land clearing, water quality, fish and game. Seems the trouble I've seen always has man on the other end of it. Anyone have any land for sale on the Hudson Bay? Heard it's getting pretty balmy up there! :naughty:
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rudy, I was just jerking your chain. Frustration would be a good term which extende well within the ranks of the DNR as well as public perception. The DNR is a "warm beer" in these times.

Sometime, we ALL need to whip up a thread about the DNR extermination of Northern Michigans deer herd. And the reasons behind the effort. And the excuses being provided.

But I am not going to be point man.

C
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:32 pm    Post subject: I Reply with quote

I remember many years ago ..an Islander .. Gene Babcock knew all about the deer herds ... but the DNR thought they knew best even though they had not been around to know anything ... they did what they thought was best .... it was not anywhere near what Gene knew what was really going on .....
Now that really got me upset ......
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Conis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: I Reply with quote

theeislandgirl wrote:
I remember many years ago ..an Islander .. Gene Babcock knew all about the deer herds ... but the DNR thought they knew best even though they had not been around to know anything ... they did what they thought was best .... it was not anywhere near what Gene knew what was really going on .....
Now that really got me upset ......


Nothing has changed, either. It is up to the islanders to help manage the herd. The DNR only wants the license $$$, so blaze away?

It is amazing to me how the DNR boasts these fantastic herd and kill numbers. It is equally amazing how hunters have to sit 2 weeks to see four small does. I think they have switched to the counted footprint = deer herd size.?
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doug miller
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The irony is that I see, from my house that is 4 miles away from the State Capitol in Lansing, deer every day in our yard. I have seen 10 deer at a time there. It is almost certainly because I have a small wooded area surrounded by a city park--and because of the development down the road. For the first 10 or 12 years I lived here I don't recall seeing deer at all. And now I see them in the yard at least twice a day. (Far more often than the occasional deer I see at my propety on the west end).
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug, That doesn't surprize me one iota.

In the city of Mount Pleasant, where hunting isn't allowed but is totally surrounded by ag land, the deer population became so high they finally had to call in "professionals" to bait, trap and shoot them.

Aside from car accidents and deer browsing on groomed flower beds in the subdivisions, there was an incident where someone was seriously injured by a buck in rut. Attacked and gored. All of a sudden, the tame "pet" deer were not only viewed as a nuisance but potentially dangerous.

I don't know if the DNR was involved in removing these deer or not. But in my book, if they belong to the state, it is the DNRs problem to deal with including the cost to remove them. There are 2-3 other no hunting areas around here with similar control issues (Canadian Lakes comes to mind).

In reality, they probably gave the city permission to deal with it and charged them for a permit as well?

Who knows. I didn't follow the situation that close. If you see some guy sneaking around your back yard with a bow and arrow, It is probably a state rep or senator looking to make a few extra bounty-bucks.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would anybody like to commit on the doe shooting on the island. (doe permits) I'm not in favor but I would like to know everyone's opion on it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin… since you asked…

I think many, including myself will agree on this. Deer are a renewable resource that do require management. Also very prolific and "molding" a herd to sex ratio and size isn't difficult with a few rules, followed.

At some point, “enthusiastic” doe shooters will figure out that shooting a doe is actually killing 2-3 deer. If hunters want to see better deer hunting, with more normal balanced buck-doe ratios, then stop shooting does. This isn’t rocket science.

A little history: Around these parts, in the 80’s, doe shooting was just something a hunter didn’t consider. BUT. This is prime ag. land and at one time, Mecosta country had the second highest deer count per section, in Michigan. I am talking hundreds of deer per section of land, much of either swamp, corn or beans. Of course the farmers started griping. This would have been about the same period the compound bow came into the scene and “bow hunting” exploded. The Department of Conservation began issuing doe permits and “bonus deer permits” You applied for an application form, sent it back and were in a lottery. If awarded a permit, then you were required to complete a success form after the season. All very scientific as far as tracking population.

Then came the “block permits” Farmers were given special permits to shoot either sex during rifle season. My next neighbor south owns 80 acres and was given permits to kill 80 deer. And they did. I wonder if that was enough?

Now…, if you own private land (more than 5 acres) you can get a doe permit, per day, all season long. In 04 the permits were $3.00, Last year $7.00. Does it have anything to do with the DNR making $$$???

We still have deer around here. The buck to doe ratio is about 1-20 since many button bucks and spikes get shot off as does. After the first day, all the deer go nocturnal ( after 20 years of bait piles = night feeding deer have survived. Another subject.)

Many property owners have banded together and formed QDM (Quality Deer Management) units of several hundred acres and/or several sections. Basically told the DNR to shove it. NO doe shooting. Period. Bucks either 6pts or larger OR between 4-8 points leaving the smaller bucks and larger dominant breeders. Amazing how the deer hunting has improved in 3-5 years time in these areas. Some really nice 12-14 pt 200+lb deer are taken. But this is farm country, food is abundant and winters are easy.

The DNR justifies the doe slaughter by the following excuses: “Too many car deer accidents”, “Too much crop damage”, “stopping the spread of bovine TB”, “Stopping the spread of moose brain worm disease or whatever they call it.”

On BBI, there are no cattle, moose, crops and I am not sure there has ever been a horrific 25mph car-deer accident? None of these lame excuses hold water, do they? BBIs herd is isolated from all other deer in Michigan. If the heard is healthy, how is disease to be spread from say deer in Cheboygan County?

The good news is I believe the BBI herd is more normal as far as buck/doe ratios. With the amount of cedar swamp on the island, they have cover and plenty to eat. I also believe the herd size is much larger than many believe since 80% are never seen.

Should does be shot on the island? The reason would be? Coyotes will manage an over population.

If the DNR issues doe permits, it is for one reason only. Use your imagination to figure that reason out. And better luck trying to make them stop. If you can figure out what the quota is, buy them up.

If hunters would quit doe shooting and follow QDM practices for 2-4 years on the island, the results would be more than evident.

Whitetails unlimited website: “Let it go… Let it grow”
http://www.whitetailsunlimited.com
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veva
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The feed problem on the Island is miss understood. The perseption that there is plenty of food is wrong. DEER should only be eating ceder to sustain themselves in winter months.There is not anywhere enough good quality forage to sustain the numbers of deer we all enjoyed in the past. I have been around the Island since 1944 and have hunted since 1962 During this time many changes have occured. The clearings have mostly closed in the forest has matured and the ceder has been over browsed. None of this has anything to do with the DNR. Some are very quick to judge. We need to encourge cutting even clear cutting and deer population control. The herd must match the good year around food supply and quality cover.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amen Veva: - I think the same way you do - there were a lot of deer 50 years ago when the island wasn't so grown over - As far as deer browsing on cedar - That is far from their first and best choice of food - it's just that's all there is to eat in the winter and now even other seasons!! I don't think mother nature always has the right decisions - It would be good to see some clear cutting in a couple of areas to see what happens, It would go back to a forest eventually anyway. I have seen the time when our winter got so bad with deep snow that our deer had to rely on cedar too - the ones that made it looked real tough in the spring!
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeez I agree with everyone but there is one problem the deer love acorns and there is plenty of them even in hunting season on the ground how come. conis said it right you can't shoot the does and have bucks everytime you shoot a doe you kill three deer. We should start planting deer plots that would help. There was a lot of good hunting in the eighties and early 90's over there. They stopped a 10 year long doe season in 1976. That year Ray Plaunt and myself carried off 13 total deer between our two boats. That was the lowest that we ever carried off. After that they quit the doe season the deer herd picked up. In the late 70's and 80's we were carring off over a 100 deer in rifle season alone. Then they put the doe season on again and the herd went down.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me start over here.

I think we can take if for granted doe shooting trashes the deer herd.

Deer really need only two things: Feed and cover. The mildness of last winter HUGELY helped the herd. I have seen very few does without twins, on the island.

Kevin. I know you are planting feed crops. The deer can use any boost they can get.

I have long maintained that BBI can maintain selective and limited cedar cutting for regrowth and browse. This is what deer rely on in the winter,after the acorns are gone. Some years are + acorn year and others not. A treat but not a year round food source.

A moratorium on doe shooting and 2-3 years selective buck harvest would amount to a major improvement in herd size and quality.

Whack the does and the herd goes down. Bottom line any way you shake it.

The first 6 mos of 2006 have been record warm (global warming???). Bad in other ways but easy on the deer. This winter may well be warmer than last. To be figured in.

I maintain, because of last winter, BBIs herd is in excellent shape with good fawn survival. Go with that and in another couple years, the island will be in great shape. That is unless the DNR gets their $$$ hands into things.

Veva, your 100% right too. There is a maximum size herd the island can maintain. All has to do with food supply and weather. if there is an over population, the coyotes will handle it. They adjust their population to the food available, just like deer.

My MAIN argument against doe shooting is that many immature bucks get taken and the ratio gets messed up. Pretty soon you have only does and many are not bred.

What wrong with old school thinking? Shoot the bigger bucks and leave the does. The herd size will manage itself by food, weather and predation. Worked well for decades until the DNR started pimping the herd for license revenues.
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veva
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KEVIN

I know about the abundance of acorns left on the ground, even after winter. If you look carefully at them , they almost allways are infected with worms. Deer will not eat infected acorns.
I have a feeling that the herd is a little more in balance than in recent years. This year antler develment appears to be fair and I have seen some does with twins.
However this does not mean the Island can sustain more deer.Food plots are not enough without habit improvement.We need to find away to provide good feed and cover year round.
The Island is a special place to all ,both deer and people.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VEVA

I say leave the deer, drink more beer! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Veva I agree with you except I think our herd could be bigger. It has been in the past with the same cover and food actually I think there is more food now then ever with everyone feeding year around. I'm going to plant winter pees also for the winter. I have some more clearing to do to work up the soil for more planting for winter feed. I hope that it works. I just don't like the doe season, and I for one will never shoot one anymore. I have to amit that I have in the past but not anymore. I haven't shot a doe in the last 15 yrs anyway. I get a buck just about every year just need to wait for them. And I don't need the meat that bad. I think everyone is on the same page on this subject though. And I think Conis is right about just shooting the bigger bucks then you will get bigger bucks in the futhur. I been hunting on the Island since the sixties and I have seen the ups and down of the deer herd and it always revolved around the doe season. Which Conis says it just puts more $$$$$$$$ in the DNR to spend else where.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmm.

Back in the 80’s, we had a MAJOR deer over population problem here in “farm country” Abundant food, mild winters, bucks only during rifle season. It was estimated 300 deer per 640 acres of land. In the spring, when winter wheat was first coming up, the “herds” in the farmers fields was such they had to be estimated as there were too many to count.

The rise in popularity of bow hunting, and ”if it’s a deer shoot it” management and long seasons drastically reduced the herd size. What really did it was reintroduction of coyotes as a “management tool” We have maybe 30% of the population 25 years ago which is still a lot of deer. This number seems to have stabilized even with incredible hunting pressure. Reason? Hunting over bait piles has helped evolve the herd into un-huntable nocturnal creatures. “Night Deer”.

I mention this only to demonstrate that BBI is NOT farm country. An entirely different much more natural situation.

Veva has it right. Habitat has to be improved to increase herd carrying capacity. Clear cutting or patch cutting to bring new growth , more food. Food plots may help but certainly isn’t an end all. Nor do I see BBI ever turning into a agricultural area (more food via crops).

I truly believe the BBI herd would sustain itself at a “natural carrying level” without hunting of any kind. I don’t see overpopulation as a problem, ever, because of limited food supply. The island would support as many deer as it could support and the numbers would go up and down in cycles. (further explanation below)

There are many uninhabited islands in Lake Michigan with deer herds. Self sustaining and self balancing. Hunting is permitted on some (as needed) and not on others. Population control is by natural predators: Coyotes.

Here is a parallel: The moose population on Isle Royal was balanced by the wolf population. (No moose hunting on that island). Things went well until the wolf population became infected with Parvovirus (carried by infected domestic dogs) Wolves started dieing off. Moose population exploded and over “grazed” available food then crashed. I don’t know where this situation stands in 2006. Had Isle Royal been uninhabited OR domestic dogs not allowed on the island, good chance this natural balance would still be working. How does this translate to BBI?

Coyotes on BBI. How many? As many as there needs to be I guess. Few understand the relationship of Coyotes to deer and rabbits.

Out west, Coyotes have been trapped, poisoned, shot with bounties in an effort to control them. It hasn’t worked so far. There is a term for this type of critter. (Can’t remember) They regulate their own numbers according to food supply. If supply is abundant, they have larger litters and vice versa. Same applies to shooting them down. They very quickly adjust their population to whatever level is sustainable. When they get over populated, disease thins them: Mange and distemper. Shooting off a coyote population is virtually impossible. Just bounces right back.

Coyotes are opportunists and will eat about anything. Mice, small mammals, fawns in the spring… and a lot of rabbits which they can catch. It is very unlikely a coyote will run down an adult deer unless it is old, sick or injured. If they do, they are doing their job. Deer are not a primary food source of coyotes with the exception a few weeks in the spring when fawns are born.

Consider a “food chain triangle” If the rabbit population is up ( in a cycle), why would the deer population go down? Stick the coyote population in the middle. More food for coyotes= more coyotes= fewer spring fawns survive.

As usual, there is more to this than weather, food and habitat; natural predation, is a predictable variable.

A few posts up, Doug Miller commented on an emerging suburban deer herd in Lansing. This isn’t happening only in Lansing. This is what happens when deer have plenty to eat, minimal habitat and no population control by predation (be it hunting or coyotes). Does having twins, can more than double the population annually. And you think rabbits are prolific?

Even with all the above said. I still do not support doe shooting on the island. There is no justifiable reason for it. There isn’t an over-population or disease problem. There are no economic conflicts with civilization (crop damage or car accidents). Too many juvenile bucks get taken “by accident” and the buck/doe ratio become skewed. At least that’s what has happened around these parts with “unlimited” doe shooting for a decade. 20 does to one buck. So many does, that many are not bred. It’s a mess, all right.

Does ANYONE have an educated guess as to the BBI deer herd size? I have NO CLUE how this could be determined on the island. One deer makes many tracks and I am sure there are deer in the cedar swamps that have never seen a man and vice versa.

Around here they estimate herd size by “formula”: # of car deer accidents, census by mail carriers during fall rut. Fly over of crops in the early spring when deer are congregated . None of which would work on the island. And from these numbers, the DNR sets a W.A.Guess "population goal" which translates to whatever hapens, happens.

How does the DNR know how many deer are on the island? If you have the answer to this, let me know. Apparently they think there is enough to exploit them for profit. And those doe license $$$ go where? To deer habitat improvement on the islands state lands? Yeah right.

As I said a couple posts up, Many local land owners around these parts have banded together and adopted QDManagement practices to try and restore the deer herd after 10-15 years of exploitation and DNR mis management. We have seen what happened and many aren’t buying into it. The same thing may have to happen on BBI.

C

At some time in the future, I would like to hear thoughts on shooting deer over bait piles. This is another variable.
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Jordan Hartman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the many years that i have been coming up to the island i have only seen maybe 1 or 2 deer a year. i would love to see more and more as the years gone on.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jordan Hartman wrote:
For the many years that i have been coming up to the island i have only seen maybe 1 or 2 deer a year. i would love to see more and more as the years gone on.


????????????

I see that many on the roads at any time of the day. In fact I had to stop my pickup in the road (by the airport) and shoo off a doe and fawn so I could get past them. They ran 10' off the side and watched, totally fearless and near tame.

A week ago, "we" took a 10 mile 4 wheeler expedition through some really dense cedar groves and marsh land. Putting along 5-6 mph. I watched the woods more than the (established) trail. Estimate 30-40+ deer seen, most does with fawns in a 3-4 hour period. They are there if you look in the right places.

There are more deer on the island than many realize. But you have to visit them to see them. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis you are long winded. (Nothing met by that) I agree about not shooting the does and more food. I don't think there is as many deer on the island as you think though. bbibabs I need help with this I know you know as much about the deer herd as anyone or more. What is your count on numbers or what do you think? It is your turn.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, someone elses turn. Yeah I am long winded and I have made my point, in detail.

Over and out.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, I'll wade in here.

I've been hunting the island for 20+ years, coming up for 35+. In that time baiting has completely changed deer hunting there. I was brought up in a camp that actually hunted(still does). Back in the day the deer were wild and natural. You scouted pre-season, determined where the food and therefore the deer were and you had a good chance of sucess. We still play it that way, but more and more over the years the deer we get are full of bait when we empty the stomachs. And more and more slobs are getting their deer off the island over that bait. I guess I'm sorry to put it that way, but to me this is not the essence of what hunting is about. I'm afraid we are raising a generation to whom deer hunting equals putting out a barrel of sugar beets and waiting around to shoot the deer that come by to eat them. Where are the woods skills in that. Where is the sense of amazement at learning all there is to know about white tailed deer in order to be sucessful? Looking for rubs, scrapes, trails, turds and all the rest. It must be a pretty boring time to be a kid coming into deer hunting. Walk out with the bait bucket, dump the bait bucket...?What about pushing so far back in the woods that you hope hope your dad or uncle knows the way back out in search of sign? I guess if you're carrying bait your arm would get too sore. This baiting business is/has wrecked hunting not only for the folks that do it, but, on an island as small as ours, for the rest of us as well. The deer respond very well to it, given the scarcity of food, and leave the rest of us hunters a lot less opportunities.

And even though the current regulations are pretty lax, most of the bait piles I come across in the woods up there are in gross violation. Massive amounts over the limit. And that's the point. How are the few underfunded officers to police the policy to begin with? Carry a gallon container around and scoop up bait piles to measure volume, then track down the violators? No wonder we seem to have an ineffectual DNR with hairbrained regs like this. It seems to me the thing is to ban baiting outright, not regulate the amount. And the bait farmers? They were growing something else before their stunted carrots and sugar beets and pumpkins etc. got so lucrative so I guess they can again.

One issue that hasn't been adressed is the disease potential this whole thing creates. In a natural situation deer seldom come into anywhere near the proximity they do when baited. Nose to nose contact, saliva transfer form munching shared food. I know BBI has historically not had a disease problem in our herd, but neither had wisconsin until cronic wasting disease. As for the doe issue, I'll say this. I DO need the meat that bad. I'd sooner shoot a nice buck any day, but if the season is getting short and I haven't seen a lot of deer, a doe fills the freezer as well as a buck, and mighty tasty, too. See ya'll in november.

Joe
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe, thanks for the detail. you said it well. The baiters/shooters just gon't get it.

C
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe what you are talking about is doe hunting stop the doe permits and the shooting over bait will quit. Bucks do not come to bait piles in the day time. Maybe small ones. It all falls into doe shooting. To me anybody can shoot a doe. You feed them they come. But not the bucks. If you are a hunter then you wouldn't shoot does. If you just want the kill then does are easy. And I'm talking on the Island only. I do know that they have trouble with over populated deer areas in the corn belt and need to thin them out so they shoot does. We do not need to thin them out so we do not need to shoot does. Baiting will go away if the doe season is droped. at least most of it. At least baiting they are feeding the deer and if they get one from that so be it they have fed a lot more then one. And if they have a blind and want to set in it all day that is a lot less people roaming the woods. I for one don't mind the baiting because it is safer and I don't have a bunch of hunters roaming onto my properity hunting and screwing up my hunting.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a good place to learn more?

http://www.whitetailsunlimited.com/programs/educational_booklets


BBi is absolutely entirely differerent than here in the corn belt where deer are considered an expensive (crop damage) nuisance. Been in the toilet for 15 years and is going to stay like this around here. I have given up.

I don't know how you stop the doe shooting if the DNR continues issuing permits on BBI. All about the $$$ and they are simply inviting and continuing the problems under discussion.

Any thoughts about trying to have BBI (all or part) brought under Quality Deer Management (QDM) guidelines? No doe shooting, bucks 6 pt and ^ only? I am not sure how this is accomplished or if the DNR has to have a hand in it. Been done around here with P.O.ed landowners forming a consensus and banding together.

One problem I see with QDM on the island is the amount of state land. The DNR would have to support it. Good luck. Around here, all private . Adjacent landowners have gotten together and formed "hunt clubs/associations" with set rules everyone is expected to follow. Unless it was island wide, I don't know how it would be enforced. Someone loads a bambi on the ferry and it came from where? Public or private land?

There is QDM activity happening around Afton, both private and state land. I'll ask a few questions and see if I can find out who is heading the effort?

Coyotes: Be interesting to figure out how much damage they actually do to the fawn crop. I would guess that on the island... it is significant. I know there is some "coyote control" going on in the winter mos. Maybe there ought to be more? Looks like the rabbit population is on the upswing on the island... and so will be the coyote population as a result.
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