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i wonder what happened to the old dock?
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shippo fox11
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject: i wonder what happened to the old dock? Reply with quote

can any one tell me what happened to the old dock its just a question i want to know Question Confused
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which old dock are you refering to?
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shippo fox11
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the pines dock where people swim a lot.
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boisblancgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The weather and elements deteriorate the dock each year. The ice took out most of it a little at a time. It looks nothing now like it did when I was kid spending all my days down their. It's sad to see it go. Unfortunately it would cost too much to have what we used to have.
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cal'sangel9
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok wait, i havent been up to the island in two summers. i know, not good, i miss it, but they're taking out the Old Dock?
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mikewhite
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:45 pm    Post subject: Some history on the Pines dock Reply with quote

Isaac, I see that you posted this under Island history. Maybe that is what you are asking for. I can't pass up responding to my grandson.
The original dock built at that location was longer and had a turn at the end that went to the right as you go out on it. It didn't have stone cribs but was built by pounding logs straight down into the bottom. They called them spiles. This wharf was made in February/March 1888 by J. N. Upham. He must have made holes through the ice to put in the spiles. the reason he built the dock was so he could get an early start at building the Pines Hotel that year. They needed the dock so they could ship in the materials easily. If you look out at the end of the dock, you can still see the ends of the spiles in the bottom of the lake. Many people have lost their fishhooks on those stubs. That wharf was repaired a few times over the years.
After many years it was decided that a stone crib style dock would possibly hold up better against the ice and not be "taken out" by ice flows as often. The dock was build not so long because big steam ships didn't stop at Pointe Aux Pins any more. The crib dock went out and turned left. Later, in the early 1950's, a really nice addition was made on the west or right side. that addition only lasted one or two winters before the ice took it out. When I say "took it out" I mean that the ice destroyed the dock. Nothing lasts forever and so after many years the ice also took out the two cribs ( I think) that held the rocks on the east or left side. The cribs holding rocks near the shore was taken out by ice or man at some point and was replaced by steel beams. The cribs that are still there are now very old and if the water gets higher and the ice pushes on them hard enough they will go out too.
Before the "new" township dock was built, this old dock was the main access point to Bois Blanc Island and the Plaunt's ferry boats docked there, and a few others too. the reason the dock slants down at the end is because cars were driven off and on the boats there. When it was the main dock for the island, it was maintained. Now, it is being neglected, because it is not the main access to Bois Blanc. That last sentence is my own personal opinion though and others may have their own opinions.
Docks, or wharfs as they used to be called, have always been gathering places for people. They gathered to meet boats or just to hang out. The old Pines dock has been a gathering place for years and years, and it will be a shame when the old cribs give way and the rocks spread out on the bottom of the lake. This is another personal opinion.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: i AM Reply with quote

I AM SO SAD TO SEE THE OLD DOCK GO .. AS THERE HAS BEEN MANY MANY YEARS OF CHILDREN PLAY AT THAT DOCK .. JUST SPEAKING OF US MIKE ... WE SPENT OUR CHILDHOOD THERE .. THEN OUR KIDS AND NOW OUR GRANDKIDS .... YOUR GRANDSON IS VERY CONCERED ABOUT THE DOCK GOING AWAY AS NOW ITS HIS TIME TO CONTINE TO ENJOY THE DOCK ..

I AGREE WITH YOUR OPINION THAT IS THE REASON IT IS NOT KEPT AS ITS NOT THE MAIN ACCESS TO THE ISLAND ANY MORE ..

I FEEL THE TOWNSHIP OR WHO EVER SHOULD HAVE MONEY TO KEEP SOME OF THE OLDER THINGS KEPT UP .. LIKE THE OLD PUMP HOUSE THERE ALONG SIDE OF THE SIDE WALK AS YOU WALK DOWN TO THE LAKE AND FOR SURE THE OLD DOCK !!! HOW SAD .... NO DOCK ??


I REALLY THINK SOMEONE SHOULD GET ON THIS OR SHOULD HAVE LONG AGO AND TRIED TO SAVE THE DOCK ... THE SOMEONE IS THE TOWNSHIP OR WHO EVER .. NOT SURE WHO AND SAVE THE DOCK !!!!

I HEARD THAT RAY PLAUNT PUT SOME MONEY INTO IT A WHILE AGO .. NOT SURE IF THIS IS TRUE ... BUT IF IT IS ... THANKS RAY !!!!

MIKE IS THERE ANYTHING WE COULD DO TO GET SOMETHING STARTED TO SAVE THE DOCK ???
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mikewhite
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:44 am    Post subject: What to do about the old dock?? Reply with quote

Isaac, I hope you were able to read all of my long answer to your question and my opinions about why the dock is the way it now is.
This web site was made to talk about Island things including personal opinions. When you express your own personal opinions, others may not agree. So, when you do that, you are risking having someone tell you that they think you are wrong. You must remember that they have as much right as you to express their opinions. Do not get mad!
What follows is my personal opinion, so I risk having someone not agree with me.
I feel that in the past people took more responsiblity for their own actions, and didn't blame others when they hurt themselves. Now days, people or organizations are afraid that someone may sue them if they get hurt on their property. So they must buy expensive insurance policies that help pay expenses if someone sues them. I feel that this is one reason that the township and other organizations will not even claim ownership of the old Pines dock. Another reason is the rebuild expense.
I feel that the main use of the dock is not for boating now, but instead falls under recreation. I also believe that the dock is surrounded by state owned bottomlands. Because of that reasoning, I feel that the Local and state government should join forces and try to get money to rebuild the old dock. Usually the money comes in the form of grants from the State that must be matched in some percentage with local government and organization funds.
Right now there is a drive to get the Lake Mary Dock done in that fashion. The local government is learning by doing. The local government must, in the recreation plan, take on responsibility for the property.
I feel that the old dock should be a priority of the local recreation commission. I feel that local organizations should support this priority by promising to help with matching funds. I feel that it would take team work on the part of the State, Township and the local organizations on the Island to get the job done.
I must warn you though, that the result may be the entire removal of the old dock to be replaced by something that will not look the same.
Now that is my opinion and now it is other peoples turn to express theirs.
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Troy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike,
I agree with you 100%, its sad but true. A couple of summers ago I spent about and hour and a half snorkeling around the old dock plus the cribs to the left and right. I was impressed I could still stay in the water that long. Very Happy It was very interesting to see how big it once was and to see these huge logs rolling around on the bottom. There were several places on the old dock where the logs had pulled loose and the rocks were spilling out. I think it is beyond repair and will probably end up looking like the new section of steel, they have added, for the entire dock. It would be terrible to not have a dock to go down to any more, it has been a place to hang out... for generations.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike you said it well and I agree with you 100% We need to fixed the dock. And it could be done if enough people support it.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking generally here:

I looked at the dock a couple weeks ago, It looks like it has really deterioriated just in the last year. I think Troys assesment is right. Beyond repair, time for Plan B whatever that is.

Mike brought up Plan B considerations: Times have changed. Everyone is Lawsuit happy. No one wants to claim the dock.

At the expense of wearing this adage out "It is all about the money". Who is going to fork out the $$$ for liability insurance and in doing so, claim ownership and risk a lawsuit... even if a new dock is built and "safe". Someone will find a way to get themsleves hurt and sue. Even if it is a planted banana peel, it still costs money to win.

The state needs to own it. They need to maintain it. I also think the state is about tapped out, just maintaining things. No clue if they have funds or matching funds for these sort of projects or if they are on a priority list or ??? Like all else, it may be more a matter of "who ya know" to get buttons pushed and see things happen. And it usually takes a while.

2cents in 2006.
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mikewhite
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:42 pm    Post subject: Liability of old dock Reply with quote

My opinion that the township lead and assume liability for the old dock is because no private organization in their right mind would do it and the State also will not do it. It may have changed, but when I was on the recreation committee and studied the state mandates to get grant money, one was that a sign must go on it saying it was funded by the State but all liability fell to the local agency that runs the rec. plan.
Now I also believe, I could be wrong, that because of the fact that someone could drown at the old dock, the present township will refuse to do anything. If they did take it on, can you imagine the regulations they would "attempt" to impose on the people using the dock. So it boils down to the fact that the State places the burden on the township and, for obvious reasons the Township is reluctant to act. Or is it just an excuse.
How is liability handled at the township's "new" dock? How will it be handled at Lake Mary? Isn't this the same kind of liability?
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike if they have a policy which I belive they do they should have a blaket policy which they could cover all of them just list them. That shouldn't be the reason but stranger things have happened. They could put some restricktions on like swimming only: Do not kill anyone do not stub toe. But I will say on the old dock now I don't no if any ones does anything with it or not but there should be a throable or a ring bouy on the end of the dock just in case. Mike if you even know who to bring it up to. Or if not I will buy one and put it down there as long as i'm not stepping on any toes.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject: dock Reply with quote

mike i agree with you ..
lets start getting something going on it
you give me some hope that a dock could be rebuild .. it does not have to be the same as now but a dock would be wonderful to contine on with the get together spot for all !!!!
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about a floating dock? something low to the water (safer) which could be removed in the fall. Low cost, low maintainence?

In fact, the dock floats can be purchased Or plastic 55 gallon drums with 10' wood frames. It doesn't have to cost a billion bucks to be sturdy and last for many years.

(edit) On second thought, floating dock maybe a really BAD idea. Get a bad storm/high seas and it wind over in Cedarville. Never mind.


Last edited by Conis on Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: dock Reply with quote

I remember Pat and Jack Sharp had a dock they put in when they came up in the summer ..then took it out before they left ..

I know nothing about what kind of dock it was ..

any one that knew them ..do you know ????
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mikewhite
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:38 am    Post subject: Old Dock stuff Reply with quote

The throwable rescue ring is a good idea but who knows how long it will hang there before someone messes with it. I call that idea and other things that have happened to the old dock, unofficial help. Unofficial help has come in the form of boards being replaced, the ramp appearing and being maintained, etc. Help for the dock just appears out of nowhere because offically it is not supposed to happen.
Sharps put in steel construction scaffolding. It was a real hassle to take out in the cold water in the fall. They have quit doing it lately.
There was a nice floating dock put in near the present old dock when I was a kid. A big summer storm came and put the whole thing up high on the beach where it stayed for many years. I believe that the floating type, if not protected, will repeat this. As ugly as I think it is, Hoovers dock might be the only long term way to go. It may be possible to drive the sheet steel completely around the still intact cribs to contain the rock so that the rocks wouldn't need to be removed. Then some of the stone nearby might be dumped inside the steel crib to fill it up. Kevin would know quite a bit about this subject. I have heard, but it may not be true, that the State wants all the stone from the old docks removed from their lake because they consider it a hazard to navigation.
I still believe that if the township leads, gets matching funds, and their recreation commission is properly in place, the State will grant money. Another idea is to get the county involved because they claim the road to the old dock. That was one of the results of Currier v Road Comm.
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IsaacsSis(Kalyn)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the dock is to be replaced, then I think it should definitely be replaced by a wooden dock so that people can continue to carve their names into it's surface.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Hoovers looks bad in my eyes I have to admitt that I helped put it there but I didn't build it. Although it seems to work. I think you are right on the sheet pileing we need the outside of the dock to be sheet piled around it then run steel beams to the shore. Make it a lot like hoovers dock (the sheet piled part) then run I beams to shore and plank them. You should be able to bridge the beams to make them strong enough to run all the way to shore. And you could bridge them underneath not on the top. It would still be quite costly mostly because of the steel piling. But you would have the rock right there to fill the crib and then just cement cap it.
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mikewhite
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Other considerations Reply with quote

You know I am getting older and I never did have that good a memory. I think I recall that possibly the BBI Association may still claim the dock and have liability insurance on it. Any planning would have to include that organization if that is true.
Another consideration are Johnsons, Lambs, Donaldsons and down the line near the old dock. What are their feelings about having a public place near their cottages. I bet a few of them want the dock to go away.
Then there are others in other parts of the Island that would say that the Township is playing favorites by concentrating their efforts in the Pines.
As for design of the dock, Kalyn, I think that treated wood would be on the part that goes out to the crib and maybe could extend over a domed cement cap. It might be possible to re-use the plank on the old dock and retain all those initials carved into them. It would save money. A lot of the time though, if you get a grant, the way that it is built is dictated to you, and if you want the grant you must comply, even though it makes no sense at all.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject: Dock Reply with quote

You are right Mike there will be some say that the township is playing

favorites if we can somehow get the dock repaired ......

but as it stands the Dock has been there for years and all we would be doing is trying to save it .. we are not building a brand new dock that has never been there so they would be very unreasonable ....

Its a tough one for sure ....

I hope who ever it will be will make a stand and try anyway to save the old dock ..

you have made alot of good points here.. and I agree on all of them ...

I want to mention too on the fact that some would want the dock gone .....

I know the people or most of them that lived at the GOLD COAST sure was happy as a lark when the road that went up their way got washed away .... thats another story ....
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: Dock Reply with quote

The 2 younger kids that came on here to let there feelings be known ....

right there tells the whole story ....




The bottom line is they love the dock .. have wonderful mermories ..and want it there forever... ....

This whole deal about the Dock is really about " the children"
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Cal'sAngel
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the old dock. So much fun. One of my favorite things about it is being on there playing on it and thinking about how my dad used to play on the dock when he was young.
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ambs
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just turned 20. i just came home from two weeks on the island.... yesterday. i still spent many days hanging out on the dock (and saw a number of people from this site while obtaining a tan -- including kalyn and whichever of al's sisters that works at the bar).

having spent a number of summers on this very dock (that being a relative amount, of course), i have met most of my island friends there. i've put my name on the planks more times than i remember. i've most certainly gotten an earful from the neighbors (including my grandparents -- the donaldsons) that were probably completely earned. however, all the nearby families, as far as when i'm visiting, spend time with their kids/grandkids on the "old dock". i assume that some people might not always be appreciative of the beach fires or the music that seems to accompany the dock come night fall, but during the day it is a family haven... or, on the other hand, a place for your kid to hang out by themselves and make friends. it seems to me that the dock is part of what makes the pines such a good rental choice for families... i'm not sure if i've ever seen char's front cottage empty!

unfortunately, i've been hearing that nobody wants to take responsibility for the dock for years. it is falling apart, and i thank whoever recently fixed it up a bit. i would love to see people truly working toward fixing/replacing/whatevering this favorite meeting place (and not just for kids in the pines, otherwise i would never have met people from other parts of the island). don't foresee it happening any time in the immediate future, but i hope its something that will eventually happen. now i just wish i knew how to help

just a perspective from another generation of island-goers
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject: DOCK Reply with quote

YES THE PARENTS OF THE KIDS OR NO KIDS ENJOY THE DOCK ALSO ..


THE ISLAND ITSELF IS A WONDERFUL PLACE TO VISIT FOR KIDS.... ALL KINDS OF THINGS TO DO .... WALK IN THE WOODS .... PICK PINE COMBS ... WALK THE BEACH FOR ROCKS ... AND ECT ECT .... BUT KIDS LIKE FUN PLACES TO GO TOO ...TO PLAY AND MET NEW FRIENDS .. AND WE HAVE REALLY NO SPECIAL SPOT FOR THAT EXCEPT THE DOCK ....

THEY DO HAVE THE HOOVER BUILDING ..BUT THAT IS A PLACE FOR DIFFRENT THINGS TO DO ..

THE DOCK IS THEE PLACE !!
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