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ATV ISSUES (again)
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: ATV ISSUES (again) Reply with quote

(edit: Split from BBI master plan thread)


Mike White said:

Quote:
At the end it was asked if there was anything else to discuss and the subject of 4 wheeler problems came up and everyone wants more enforcement.


I enjoy sightseeing and exploring on a 4 wheeler. So do many others. It is the minority that ruin it for others; "under age" visitors specifically.

I agree there needs to be more enforcement however G.W. cannot be everywhere at once. There were "race track issues" on Rocky Road this summer. After having had enough, I personally read a couple riot acts to kids. G.W. got involved after complaints from others, an ultimatum was issued to parents=end of problem. Also been some discussions of signs (on RRoad)going up: "PRIVATE ROAD 10 MPH" posted at both ends. 50 mph/airborn just aint cuttin' it. They can ride by all day, I could care less.

I hate to be a sign freak... BUT... A conspicuous sign posted at the dock, maybe next to the fire danger sign, to the effect " ATV LAWS STRICTLY ENFORCED ON BOIS BLANC ISLAND" with a brief list summary will remind visitors that BBI isn't a race track in Alaska.

It isn't the adults so much. Unsupervised kids causing problems, many too young to legally operate an ATV. no helmets, riding double... "Supervised" means riding with an adult, within sight.

If they are out of hand, Stop them in the road write down the number on the ORV sticker, That will put the fear of god into 'em.


Last edited by Conis on Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:18 pm    Post subject: ATVs Reply with quote

Conis, you wild man! Stop 'em on the roads and write down their license number! May I add, stop'em on the beaches and write down their license there as well?

I've done it. It works. ATVs are legal on designated trails (and roads on BBI) only.

I love the sign idea. If the county has to make it, we might see it before global warming floods the straits over the island. We could team up, paint a beauty, with twshp permission, and put 'er up if the wait time is too great with the county or twshp. Something even smaller, in Cheboygan or on Plaunt's boat, with the same message... could only reinforce that legal behavior is welcome.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: ATVs Reply with quote

John Elmer Engel wrote:
Conis, you wild man!


Mad Dog Engle, you environmental PC twit!

If folks walked out in the road with a ball bat when the 4 wheeler morons were screwing up, they would get the message. At least that's the way things used to work back when problems were straightforward and simple.

Signs first, ball bats second, G.W. third.... in a functional-simple world. But I am old school... when making a point was still legal. So I guess the ball-bat impression is out of the loop?

All I got to say.

C

A sign like this?
http://www.bois-blanc.com/phpBB2/album_page.php?pic_id=1356
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Rich
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that unlicensed minors need to be accompanied by an adult. I agree that posted speed limits need to be honored. I agree that helmets need to be worn. I'm not against paying for the ORV stickers.
However, I do have a problem with G.W. giving citations to children (who are with their parents) for not having a "safety course certificate", if in fact this rumor is true. It's a parents job to teach their children and decide if they are ready to operate an ATV.
This island has a much bigger problem with us adults speeding in our vehicles. It's difficult to throttle back after several hours of driving at highway speeds to get to the island.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich wrote:
...However, I do have a problem with G.W. giving citations to children (who are with their parents) for not having a "safety course certificate", if in fact this rumor is true. It's a parents job to teach their children and decide if they are ready to operate an ATV.....


Kids under the age of 16 are required to be under direct visual supervision and have a valid safety certificate. GW is only enforcing existing law.

Quote:
All ORV operators under the age of 16 are required to possess a valid safety training certificate when operating an ORV.

The safety certificate must be carried by the operator on his or her person and available to present upon demand of a law enforcement officer.

http://www.offroad-ed.com/mi/handbook/age_restrictions.htm

Technically ATVS are not allowed on any public road: (excerpt)
Quote:
Roads, streets, and highways maintained for year-round automobile travel are closed to ORV operation, including the shoulder and right-of-way. (That is, the entire width between boundary lines of public ways maintained for vehicular travel is closed to ORVs.) However, ORVs registered as motor vehicles by the Secretary of State may be operated on the roadway.

Unless an ORV is licensed for highway use, it may not be operated on the roadway, shoulder, or right-of-way of a state, federal, or county road.


Also off limits are beaches.
http://www.offroad-ed.com/mi/handbook/land_use_other.htm

All laws pertaining to ATV/ORV can be found here:
http://www.offroad-ed.com/mi/handbook/toc.htm

GW is being more than tolerant and letting a lot of rules get bent. But this could change with more abuse. This isn't a zoning issue.

Parents need to be aware of the laws.

Maybe get some printed booklets.... and make them available at Hawks?
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:38 am    Post subject: Signs, signs, everywhere signs... Reply with quote

...signs, signs, everywhere signs, do this, don't do that, can't you read the signs.....

Good sign, Conis. Perhaps a picture of Charleston Heston with a rifle raised above his head will give added impact...just jokin' around.

PC twit!!!! eh.? I'll get even. Don't be surprised if fast growing "trash trees" mysteriously start popping up around your cabin. They didn't call him "Johhnny appleseed" for nothing.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Signs, signs, everywhere signs... Reply with quote

John Elmer Engel wrote:
...signs, signs, everywhere signs, do this, don't do that, can't you read the signs..... .


Good point. Pretty soon the dock will have a billboard with Mr Do Bee on one side and Mr Don't Bee on the other? How do you make people aware?
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like ridding my 4-wheeler on the roads of the island but I do think we need more control. I don't think that anyone without a drivers liciense should be able to ride on the county road. (Just the trails) and I think if there is a problem then crack down on the people that there is a problem with not everyone. Personally I haven't seen a problem but it might be where I'm at to.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the problem(s) are when kids are racing around populated areas, unsupervised. Noise, speed and dust, legal aside.

I don't think the solution is a ball bat (that was a joke) or calling GW every time you feel like it is "ball bat time". My approach has to been to stop them and tell them to tone it down or else... and that I was asking them to do so "nicely... this time...only". For the most part, the kids are clueless about the rights of others... (another subject).

Why be afraid to jump in there and nip a bad situation in the bud? Not your job? If GW gets call after call and has to run all over the island repremanding kids and parents, its gonna hit the fan for everyone. GWs letting things slide that he wouldn't have to, for the benefit of the majority who aren't causing problems.

If the kids get testy or decide to ignore some stern advice, Then call GW. At least give them a first chance and wake-up call. Just common sense and usually seems to work.
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a long and preachy post (sorry).

As a kid, I had a small Honda trail bike, and would also drive the pickup all over the Island. If my Dad ever got the sense I was being careless or disrespectful to others while riding or driving, that would've been the end of it. No 'three strikes and out' - one strike, and the pickup and motorbike would have been gone. That's the real problem here; if I lay into a kid for screwing around on his ATV, his dad is more likely to call me names for harassing his kid than to impose any sort of punishment. Why should kids respect others, when their parents don't?

That sense of respect was drilled into my head early on. If an adult had ever had to stop me and tell me to "tone it down", I'd probably trip all over myself apologizing to him/her, and then I'd never be seen there again. I'd have felt awful knowing I had upset someone.

As an adult, I've had to chastise my share of kids for doing this or that. And I can tell you, those I've had 'words' with do not give a tinker's crap about having crossed the line with me. In fact, the more I have to chastise, the more they feel licensed to be disrespectful. How the hell does that work? I don't get it. The lack of regard or respect for other people and their property must originate with dad and mom.

I've mellowed a bit with age. Let the kids have fun. Let the neighborhood kids run all over the yard. Whatever! I even told the neighbor's kids that they could cut across my acre lot to get to the next road over. No problem. The problem came when Sam caught them sneaking around our pole barn one evening. After she shooed them off, I was working in the barn, and I started hearing this loud pop. Pop, pop, pop, on the side of the building. One of the kids was hucking softballs at the back window and wall of the barn (he thought there was no one inside... heh heh). Luckily, nothing was broken.

As I walked out of the building and toward the noise, I came around the corner just in time to see the kid winding up to throw again. "Don't do it," I said. Startled, the kid wheeled around and acted like he hadn't done a thing. After a few snotty words to Sam and me, he was back in the safety of his house, with mom and dad who had probably witnessed him throwing the ball at my building and done nothing.

Had my Dad seen me doing something like that to a neighbor's building, or even heard about it later, he'd have blistered my butt in plain sight of God and everyone. (That's not necessarily the recommended approach to solving the problem, either, but I can guarantee it would have solved it.)

The kids can be warned, but the problem will fester until their parents are inconvenienced by their disrespect. I agree that kids should be able to ride ATVs on the Island, if they follow the rules. If they break the rules, I'd like to invite them to get off the machine and walk home. "Tell your Dad he can come and pick this thing up later. You are done riding."

Of course, if I did something like that today, I'd probably risk being hauled into court by the parents for "stealing" the ATV and intimidating the poor child. Maybe it's just a city mentality that is gradually finding its way into the country. And maybe it's an unfair generalization; there are a lot of responsible parents out there, who will take it seriously when their kids cross the line. But there are a lot more who won't.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was a kid once, too. With dirt bikes and all. I probably broke every rule in the book but back then, there were far fewer rules. I did respect adults which may not be the case with many kids these days.

I still think it is worth a shot. If you treat someone with respect, they will likely treat you the same way (unless they are nuts). Ask them once, sternly, to cease and decist. If that doesn't work then its plan B: GW time.

It is a respect issue. Kids learn from their parents. If parents don't respect others, why should their kids be any different?

Kids deserve to have fun. No problem there. It takes a village to raise a child. Sometimes a stranger intervening will have a greater impact than mom or dad (known limits edge).

Never know till you try, at least once. Sometimes the simplest solution is the least obvious.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject: Signs Reply with quote

Just so all know, I've been pulling Conis' leg about the signs. I am all for it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:57 pm    Post subject: rules Reply with quote

I agree Dan .. things are diffrent today with respect from the kids ..

we are scared to handle the kids in sight of anyone ... and that is wrong .. the kids know it and this all has become a real problem ...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis copy pasted this:

Technically ATVS are not allowed on any public road: (excerpt)

Quote:
Roads, streets, and highways maintained for year-round automobile travel are closed to ORV operation, including the shoulder and right-of-way. (That is, the entire width between boundary lines of public ways maintained for vehicular travel is closed to ORVs.) However, ORVs registered as motor vehicles by the Secretary of State may be operated on the roadway.

Unless an ORV is licensed for highway use, it may not be operated on the roadway, shoulder, or right-of-way of a state, federal, or county road.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bois Blanc is considered Mackinaw county.. Other then Keweenaw County, all local, township, County Roads open to ATV's. However no ATV's allowed on road or state easement on any State or US Highway.

Thats the law..you are incorrect. Also to think the 1% or ORV users in this state can/do ruin it for other responsible users is frieghting.

Conis, you seem stead fast in your beliefs. I'm a D-14 member (Michigan's chapter of organized on road- off road ORV racing) a ATVA memeber and I post on many different ORV boards.

Not here to ruffle your feathers But Mackinaw county IS open to ORV use on ALL county roads. Theres no ""Technically" about it. #Mad

Just to add.. that I (like some) fell ORV traffic should be embraced..I come to you're ( Rolling Eyes ) Island and spend my money in your community..although I can stay home in Oscoda county and ride what is arguably the best trail system in Michigan...but for 1 week out of the year I load up my family and my QUAD and spend it enjoying a little secret riding area. AKA Bois Blanc.


Last edited by heatseeker8 on Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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heatseeker8
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.offroad-ed.com/mi/mi_specific_images/pdfs/MI_ORV_37.pdf

In the above link you will read that ORV use is not allowed on county roads..shoulders..etc...UNLESS there is a county ordinance that SUPERCEEDS what Conis wrote. FYI each township has a right to "opt out" of said ordinance. That is the law for the L.P. Not sure how Mackinaw county or you're township falls in this law.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heetseeker....

Quote:
Conis, you seem stead fast in your beliefs.


The information I got was from the links posted. This is apparantly an on-line version of the DNR ATV rules/regs booklet. What I copied/pasted came from that site and you can find it there. I emailed the webmaster to see where these pamphlets could be obtained. The answer was "ANY DNR OFFICE".

I was under the impression UP roads were open (unless posted closed) and vice versa in the lower. BBI would be U.P. although this isn't what I read in the website. Maybe I missed something.

As an avid ATV enthusiast, you of all would be one to appreciate and endorse safety training and certification of underage operators. This seems to be where the crux of the BBI issues stem from. Whether or not BBislanders will "embrace" 4 wheelers on the island will depend on the abuses. BBI isn't a desiginated ORV area as we know them in the LP.

I will also tell you I have enjoyed OFF ROAD my entire life. Dirt bikes, Sand cars, jeeps and ATVS. You are preaching to the choir. I am on my 7th 4 wheeler and with a tricked out mule and 6x6 also in the fleet. God knows how many dirt bikes (too old for that anymore).

There are ATV issues on the island; Many believe because parents allow kids to go wild, many underage and without certification/unsupervised. At least this has been my persoanl experiance. Those who come with 4 wheelers to BBI, thinking the same go-fast rules that seem to apply in down state ORV areas, apply to BBI, may have another think coming. I am not making this up as I go along, simply summarizing the sentiments of residents and property owners on the island.

Every year, there seems to be an incident/accident usually involving a rider lacking experiance. This past summer was no different. When these accidents occur on public roads or involve pedestrian or non orv vehicals.... Consider it having hit the fan. Our resident deputy "G.W." can fill in the blanks. And thats where it stands.

4 wheeling is a great family activity. One I support. If you enjoy it on BBI, just as I do, you will understand where I come from on this subject.

Things have been "tolerant" so far, and only so far.

C
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said before I think 4- wheeler riders should have a valid drivers liciense any time they are on the county road. Trail riding is something else. They need to be 12 yrs old and have a ORV certificate and if they are caught missing up pull the certificate. Then they can ride on there own properity only.
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heatseeker8
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply...I think you and I are on the same page now...somewhat anyway.

The Michigan law banning kids from ATV's untill there 12 is VERY outdated and needs to be addressed...yesterday.

If a child is over or at the age of 6 years old they should be able to operate a ATV..one that fits them of coarse..while being supervised by an adult!

Around here we get complaints about noisy quads daily..but noone says boo about those annoying Harley straight pipes or semi's using there Jake brake while coming through town.

Yes underage kids on full size ATV's w/o supervision is a problem..When I was 7-8 I had my first dirtbike...rode the pee out of it..and guess what?..no parents around..as long as I stayed on our property and wore my helmet Mom and Dad didnt care..And I think it should still be that way today.

We live in a informational society today..Guy/girl cant take a poop in the woods w/o a Radio/tv crew there..Ever noticed on radio/tv news how often a ATV death gets reported?

But yet there are many more positive news stories to report, but yet *WE* are forced to hear about ATV deaths and that makes the average non ORV user think these machines/users are dangerous.

Nothing could be farther from the truth! Its up to each ORV user to ride and use the exsiting conditions plus skill level to their advantage.

Parents/guardians should be fined or worse when a under age person is involved in a accident while operating on public land.

Conis hers a link for you as a ATV entusiaist. www.atvoffroad.net

Its a free ,Michigan based site with a political agenda in mind..good group of guys/gals and they have a loud voice in Lansing.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back when I was a kid with a dirtbike, there weren't rules. If you thought could climb it, rip a groove in it trying. I likewise remember buggies tearing up the dunes at wildnerness park in the 70's... "just sand dunes". As it once was but is no more.

Yeah well, times have changed. I am not going over this for the 14th time, what the problems on the island are. I am not that into ATVS/ORVS anymore on a statewide basis. All I have to say is that if parents allow their kids to operate 4 wheelers on the island, unsupervised and whatever happens-happens, all the rest of us responsible adults may end up paying for the abuse. BBI = ATV CLOSED.

C


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Rosemary
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mis-use of ATV's happened once before on the island. The end result, they were ban from the road. All need to follow the laws regarding this issue. Amen #Bad Talk
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Rich
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

where would an out of state islander go to get a safety certificate for a child, and would an out of state certificate be acceptable?
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Conis
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich wrote:
where would an out of state islander go to get a safety certificate for a child, and would an out of state certificate be acceptable?


Good question! I know atv/orv licenses are recriprocal among states.
The safety training-certificate "thing" might be michigan law? (only?)

The DNR website has an entire section devoted atv rules/regs and trails. At the top of the page is an "ask the DNR" link... Type in this question to them, see what comes back. They usually respond in 1-2 business days.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10365_15070---,00.html.

Quote:
(me from an earlier post)I was under the impression UP roads were open (unless posted closed) and vice versa in the lower. BBI would be U.P. although this isn't what I read in the website. Maybe I missed something.


I have to admit that I am somewhat confused after re reading the the DNR statute regarding operation on county roads, UP/LP. Responsible use of ATVs as transportation and within the 25mph speed limit, on the islands county roads, appears to be permitted. I do so frequently, as do many many others. This would also be contrary to Rosemary's statement.

Perhaps someone can clarify the twps position? Legal or not?
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Al'sOtherSister
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis...your avatar is cracking me up!! LOL!

Lisa
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have you all know that it isn't just the under-age or of-age kids that are abusing the right to ride ATV's on the county roads here!!! There are plenty of adults that are just as bad if not worse than some of the kids. They fly down the road and abreast at that!!!.........2 and 3 abreast!!! Or they take all the corners on the inside whether it's their side of the road or not. I don't think we need to be blaming all the ATV problems on the kids.

Don't get me wrong, I like being able to ride a 4-wheeler here, but it's almost not safe to do so anymore. With more vehicle traffic and ATV traffic and people not staying on their own side of the road or keeping within the 25 mph limit..........I fear for my life while riding. And more importantly, parents should be fearing for their kids lives!!!!!

I could go on and on but I won't.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boisblancgirl: Maybe I have been a little shortsighted in "blaming the kids". I am sure there is more too this problem than just unsupervised kids. Way too easy to gripe. What would be a step toward a solution?

Some points worth considering:

Until two years ago, 4 wheelers were also permitted on Beaver Island, although BI is in the lower peninsula (Charlevoix county). Same abuse problems and no more 4 wheelers. All done. That's how it went.

4 wheelers and licensed road vehicals are a bad mix. That doesn't need to be proven and the exact reason 4 wheelers are not permitted on LP roads. I have no idea who gets the right of way. I do know that both wheelers and passenger vehicle operators had better pay attention.

Heetseeker said:
Quote:
Just to add.. that I (like some) fell ORV traffic should be embraced..I come to you're ( ) Island and spend my money in your community..although I can stay home in Oscoda county and ride what is arguably the best trail system in Michigan...but for 1 week out of the year I load up my family and my QUAD and spend it enjoying a little secret riding area. AKA Bois Blanc.


I am not sure how many islanders "embrace" more 4 wheeler traffic to the island. Big $$$ coming in? To who? Plaunt Ferry and Hawks may make a few bucks. Good for them. Everyone elses tolerance seems to be wearing thin.

BBI isn't a state operated "trail system". It is a wild area where many use 4 wheelers for transportation or passive exploration of the island.. rather than as a "motorsport" in a desiginated ORV area. Maybe this is where the conflict begins?

With more 4 wheelers, there are going to be more problems. Period. So control the numbers.

Now, I am REALLY going to rub some fur the wrong way: Perhaps the township can issue ATV permits secondary to state orv stickers. A quota. Annual permits at a nominal cost to island taxpayers. Visitor permits by the day/week. No idea if this is legal or what. Proceeds applied to added enforcement. It is only a suggestion.
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