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ATV ISSUES (again)
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My question is this: I see lots of ORVs coming over on the ferry. But where, other than on a person's own land, can the ORVs be legally operated?


As things stand: Because BBI is part of Mackinac County which is part of the UP, ATVs can be operated on county roads, established 2 tracks on state land etc. In the lower peninsula, CLOSED unless posted open (as in an ATV desiginated area). In the upper, OPEN unless posted closed unless the counties/twps want it different.

Things might change depending on what the twp might decide to do as far as dealing with escalating ATV problems.
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bknoll
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sure hope that quads won't be banned. Begged my wife for years to let me get one and she finally caved in the fall of 03. Still have the same quad, 850 miles on it and all but probably 50 of them are island miles. Put about 200 on it each fall driving back and forth to the hunting spot on the island during bow season. I bought mine specifically for this reason and I would hate it if we were banned because of some thoughtless riders.
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis, I feel you are not stirring the pot, you are rightfully bringing this information to everyone's attention instead of keeping it in the dark. Another reason why these ATV's need rules too. Where was the EMS-fire department in helping this person? Are they not also responsibile for this kind of thing too, not just fires?
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject: many Reply with quote

many many years ago there was alot of bark off of trees from cars hitting trees ... and they would say this is so and so tree .. this was from underage kids that could not go to the bar..then there was ones that were leaving the bar and hit trees with their snowmachines .. at that time nothing was made of it ,,,

have to be careful on that island ..alot of curves and rocky roads ... makes for a good slide into a tree ..
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Squeaky wrote:
Conis, I feel you are not stirring the pot, you are rightfully bringing this information to everyone's attention instead of keeping it in the dark. Another reason why these ATV's need rules too. Where was the EMS-fire department in helping this person? Are they not also responsibile for this kind of thing too, not just fires?


The ATV rules are there, it is more a matter of responsibility.

As far as the last accident. (remember I am getting 2nd hand information). I am not sure EMS was contacted. The guy crashed. The loaded him in a truck and headed for the tavern where a call was made to arrange for an airlift off. Or something like that. What's the other choice? Leave him lay there and go look for help? Moving someone with possible internal injuries isn't the wise thing to do. I am not sure just how it was handled. I heard the guy is allright. Lucky guy he is.

This episode is a prime reason the island needs better cell service. Fast response by ems in an emergency situation, island wide.

If someone wants to run their car, sled or 4wheeler into the trees, sober or not, the end result is pretty much their problem. When another car gets smacked head-on or a pedestrian taken out, then sentiments will change.
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Familyman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!
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Rich
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis, you always say it's about the money. Impose very stiff fines for breaking our townships simple and sensible rules and I believe these problems will subside. Signage would be necessary by the dock showing the dollar amounts for each infraction. Fines have to be high to be effective.
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cal'sangel9
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'd have to agree with having high priced fines for breaking the rules. i would think that would be effective, cuz i dont know about the rest of you guys, but i sure dont like paying for something i shouldn't have had to. and if everyone realizes that they can save some cash and save a lot of trouble, it seems like this would be a good approach.
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are several problems with fines:

1. Although there may be some preventive effect of a sign, in practice it takes several citations to make the message real.

2. Many of the worst offenders are casual visitors who may miss that message. "Just this ONE time, no one will notice".

3. Someone has to identify the 'evildoer'.

4. Someone has to stop the person, and Graham can't be everywhere.

5. Someone has to collect the fines.


Why not insist that all motorized vehicles using the tax-supported county roads be 'street legal' and licensed?

Unlicensed vehicles could be operated without restriction on the owner's property?
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Familyman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure glad my kids are older now. I've been coming up since 1974. We have had a lot of fun riding the trails, on and off the roads, going all the way from east to west, stopping for ice cream at the store, checking out Snake Island, picking up rocks on the beach, stopping on the side of the road talking to people. All you regulators out there want to try and and regulate everything. New law for this , new sign for that. What do you do all day? Think up ways to control peoples lives, and be fun governors. Go get a place in Traverse City or Harbor Springs where the steets are paved (no dust) and the crosswalks have signs that will tell when it's safe to walk. If someones being stupid riding too fast and being reckless, it's because we didn't have a sign that told them not to? In 32 years I have only seen a couple of idiots, and those were in the woods on trails. I know there have been a couple of bad accidents, but I guarantee a sign or law wouldn't have prevented them. I would bet our safty record on the Island beats any downstate. The Island hasn't changed that much in the 32 years I've been coming up. Yeah, there's more people right now, but if you ask the old timers, they will tell you it cycles. Leave the Island alone. Yeah, sometimes doing nothing is the best thing to do.
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been both a kid and an adult on the Island. Been coming up every year since '73. I agree that signs don't help. Seen a LOT of idiots, and I know there have been a LOT of accidents. As a kid, I used to ride trail bikes and drive an old pickup around the Island backroads - I was careful and never caused a problem. I wouldn't want to deny kids that experience. As an adult, I've nearly creamed kids/teenagers on 4-wheelers who were being extremely reckless and not paying attention. So, if you don't want regulation, then what do you suggest? I don't like regulations any better than the next guy, but the stupidity's gotta stop.
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Familyman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are trying to hard to think up ways to protect people from themselves. Have you ever seen a high school parking lot after school? It's amazing 5 or 6 aren't killed every day. There are all kinds of laws and ramifications, but they insist on being stupid and taking chances. If the "evildoers" on the Island break the law, turn them in. Let Graham decide if its worth a warning, ticket or jail. By the way, Graham has done a fantasic job. People still smoke, take drugs, drink too much, eat too much, stay up to late, don't exercise, swim after eating and use artificial sweetner.
I still can't believe how bad you say it is. In 32 years I have never had a close call with a 4-wheeler, motorcycle, car or deer. Mabey I just have the right karma surronding my baby blue aura.
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite the contrary, I'm trying to think up ways people can keep doing whatever they please without causing a problem for others or bringing unnecessary/superfluous laws down on the rest of us. Let me try to put it a different way: I agree with you, for the most part. I dislike laws designed to protect me from myself. And, quite honestly, if someone wants to get liquored up and put his ATV up against a cedar, that's his prerogative (as long as it isn't my cedar. Or John Engel's. We don't take kindly to that sort of tree abuse around here.) Wink But then again, maybe I should be pissed off when that happens, because that person has just added an unnecessary burden to emergency services for which we must all ultimately pay. Furthermore, every time it happens, we're one step closer to having those laws that try to protect us from ourselves.

If you read this entire thread, there's no one out there trying to put seat belts or air bags on ATVs. We just don't want a few idiots to spoil it for the rest of us. I hope that makes more sense.
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Familyman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do know what you're saying. You're looking for an answer to a problem that can't be solved. The best we can do is punish the offenders after the fact. When a drunk leaves the bar, gets in his car, drives down the road (creating dust) runs into your cedar tree and breaks his neck, when do we stop him? Before he goes into the bar, after he gets drunk, when he gets into the car, while he's driving, or after he hits the tree? The best we do in that instance is stop him while he's driving. He gets the maximum penalty that may stop him from doing it again. The same is true with the problem atv riders. You shouldn't be allowed to punish someone before hand.
Mabey we should ban alcohol on the Island, it causes too many problems. Stop the problem at its roots.
I think part of the problem is too many people complain about too many insigificant instances.
Then again, mabey profiling is the way to go. Bar patrons, teenagers, anyone over 60, illegal aliens with Muslim sounding names and anyone that looks like they are about to have a good time should top the list.
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can solve it easily by banning ATV's like they've done other places.

If it can't be solved, then eliminate them.

Graham is supposed to get a helper next year. Maybe that'll do it.

If not, I'll join the ban ATV group.

I've been coming up to BBI since before the powerlines. There HAVE been changes. Big changes. The Island may be reaching the tipping point where coarse behavior is now impinging on others. I heard that July 4 was a mess for folks in the Pines. Oldtime cottage owners say that the 'redneck' behavior in the bar at night has become worrisome.

I don't know?

I figure that most of these issues are from non-property owners who don't have a real stake in things.

Supposedly someone has posted on the Web that BBI is a place you can road race and misbehave without consequence. I haven't found such a message or group advocating that. Although some on this site seem to come close.

I personally like the Island for itself, not to get drunk, not to go fast, not to shoot, not to bother anyone else.

I'm tucked away far enough, so that I don't get much of that commotion.

I just don't like to pay taxes to support a race to the bottom.
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Familyman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It keeps coming back to the bar. CLOSE THE BAR!!!!
While we're at it let's ban;
nosiy little kids, gas motors, commotion of any kind and anything else I don't like.
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cal'sangel9
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, about the pines folks being upset with the bar during 4th of july. question....there's only one bar still right? i havent been up in 2 years, and the only bar i know of is the Tavern at the end of Rocky Road. so i gotta say, it must have been one heck of a loud party for the folks all the way in the pines to hear the bar. now i can understand people driving by late at night, but thats not noise coming from the bar. so they cant complain about the bar being noisy. but to be completely honest, i'm confused at this stage, so i think i'll just sit back and watch you fella's argue all this non sense out. enjoy. one more thing, i've always wondered why gw didnt have another deputy to help him out. just one concern, who will be roscoe and who will be enos??? haha Laughing
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I guess I've been wasting my breath. ATVs, no ATVs, whatever, just mind our own business and we'll be fine.
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the confusion.

The July 4 problems were unrelated to the bar.

I have no opinion about ATV's. I personally don't understand them. IMHO it's boring to ride down a gravel road. I prefer to get some exercise walking, running, or riding a bike. Engine noise, exhaust, and dust aren't my cup of tea.
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Rich
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Family Man, I'm not suggesting new laws at all, just stiff fines for people who break the law. The offenders on ATV's seem to be mainly kids. No parent is going to allow a child to drive without adult supervision if it costs them a couple hundred dollars everytime they get caught. This would help solve the ATV safety issue, nobody wants to see people get seriously injured. I am personally an ATV enthusiast and have several of them. Posting the rules will not completely stop the problem but it will be an effective deterant, especially for those who come over just to tear up the trails. I won't join the "BAN THE ATV CLUB" until I'm Charlies age, which I suspect is about 95.
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mikewhite
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:46 am    Post subject: Warning Sign Reply with quote

Maybe a small warning sign would be in order that would say:

Warning - There is no EMS service on Bois Blanc Island!
There is no true 911 service on Bois Blanc Island!
You may be required to seek your own medical attention!
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stumpy110_98
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree there should be a sign placed right off the main docks that warns riders of no EMS service and they ride at their own risks. Also maybe post it in the island fairy schedule and in the Hawks landing. It would not be a bad idea to post where ever you can then they cant say that they didnt know there was no EMS if something did happen (god forbid it does though we all hope not right). I came up with friends once a few years ago and we all brought atv's to get around on the island on the 2 tracks so didnt have to drive our personal vehicle on them. It was really nice to do that it is relaxing and soothing with the fresh lake air riding on the island. I would hate to see them be banned or something because people are being stupid.
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<<I came up with friends once a few years ago and we all brought atv's to get around on the island on the 2 tracks so didnt have to drive our personal vehicle on them. It was really nice to do that it is relaxing and soothing with the fresh lake air riding on the island. >>>

Right! Rattling around on a weedeater is 'relaxing and soothing' while you pollute the 'fresh lake air'. - Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me. - You say things often enough and you begin to believe them.


Sometime try coming up with a bicycle. How about a canoe, kayak, or sailfish?

Something that I always notice when I get up to BBI is the heft on people. Many, if not most, are FAT. Kids too!

ATV misbehavior is not the fault of kids. It's the parents. Universally kids emulate their parents. If the parents have no discipline, the kids have no discipline. If the parents behave as if rules are for others only, their kids will do the same. Human nature. You can catch and punish the kids, but the parents are really the problem. But this blogsite displays quite well the fact that parents bring their own culture with them. Folks can talk all they want about the natural state and beauty of BBI, but they insist on bringing noisy machines, TV's, domestic animals, and doing their drugs of choice at the bar.

I don't have any fundamental objections to any of those behaviors, it's just laughable behavior, IMHO.

I'm also struck by the ignorance of most BBI'ers when it comes to the local flora, fauna, geology, and hydrology.

When I look out onto the Straits, I rarely see anyone in a paddled craft. Are there ANY sculls or rowing canoes? There's always wind. Where are those one and two man sail boats?

Lake Huron has been very warm the last years. Where are the swimmers? Doesn't anyone swim to the mainland? At least try? How about swimming around the island?

How long does it take to run/jog/walk around the perimeter of the island? How many have done it?

How many eagle's nests can you count?

##############################################################

BTW, it's hard to get hurt on ATV's at 25mph, but they get pushed faster.

Consider making the speed limit for ATV's and dirt bikes 10 MPH. Then the EMS issue would disappear. Perhaps this would be a middle ground rather than a total ban. (I've seen college campuses where the speed limit is 8 MPH. Seems to work well.)
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cal'sangel9
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why in the world would you want to consider making the speed limit for atv's 10mph? how dumb is that, and if you cant see why, let me explain. imagine an atv traveling 10mph when the speed limit for other cars/trucks/vans is still 25mph. do you see it yet? no, ok hang on, get this, since that atv has to travel at 10 the car or truck or van is going to want to and eventually have to pass it correct? right. and last time i checked passing the atv will create much dust for the atv rider, which is a hazard, but let's not forget that for that 5-10 seconds it could possibly take the vehicle to pass the atv, THEY'RE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD!, and again, last time i checked, that aint so safe. you never know who might pull out just enough, or who's coming around the corner, so if it's not obvious yet, that idea of lowering the speed to 10 for atv's is not smart in my book, but that's just me.
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Familyman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a great idea. Limit the amount of vehilces on the Island. Only land owners on the Island can have one. One car per 5 acres. 1 atv per immediate family member. 1 chainsaw per 10 acres. And, of course, 1 Charlie Trie per Island.
Or we could go the Mackinac Island route and ban vehicles period.
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