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Shoreline Preservation
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John

I have a great vacant land mortgage and water front is the best. Acreage is no problem,I can go 100% of the purchass price. There is also lot mortgages but with a lot mortgage you have got to have a house setting, otherwards a clearing for the house, septic drainfield ect. I can even sell you a high end Bicca modular with log siding and hardwood floors to set on the properity. You can even set back into the woods so you can't see the water, but if you want to sell it it won't be worth as much money if you can't see the water. But you will pay the same amount of taxes on it.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: BBI future Reply with quote

Where did I hear those words, "Education and awareness" before? They are so true.

If...If preservation efforts result in concrete policy, it will be because of many voices, like yours, speaking up. There is nothing negative about saving the natural land features of BBI...nothing.

And apparently, township officials at this point have not heard the chorus yet. Keep singing, my friends, and we will be heard.
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Point
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I think the Township Board is doing a great job for the little they get for the headache that is involved. Very few of us can or would take the heat like they do and the biggest part is keeping your mouths shut. If the voting majority don't like what they see, then vote them out. It is simple small town politics at its best, no different that anywhere else.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: shore Reply with quote

I am with Mike with his comment ...

I think .. that people out there are not understanding me ...

Just read the first part of Mikes post and ya got it ....
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:50 pm    Post subject: shore Reply with quote

mikes post is on page 4
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: shore Reply with quote

Just above Susies comment ..

I hope you take the time to read mikes post there ..
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, let me get this straight.. We keep our mouths shut so we don't inconvenience the poor township officials that asked to be elected to the position knowing it involves listening to thier constituents..

Don't get me wrong! I'm one of the ones that sticks up for those same officials.. We are citizens with an idea for preservation and protection for an Island we all love.. That is not a bad thing! It's not just trees that need protecting.. It's the Piping Plover and the Island Tansy and the Flag Iris and the fragile wetlands and old growth cedar and the people who have been there forever. It would protect them too.... In another 5 years the Island will be devoid of the Beech trees because of a stinkin fungus.. The West End will be so very naked! Lets educate ourselves and be more aware of the future of our Island is all we are saying.. Take steps now to put in place protection for what hasn't been destroyed yet..
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Township Board Reply with quote

Point

I think they are doing a great job too. I think they should address shoreline preservation.

Kevin

Have you ever spent any time in a cabin, on a shoreline, with only foot paths beyond the tree line?? Now be honest. And Kevin, I would love to see the property you are talking about if you are serious. I love looking at the land in different locations on BBI. Conis took me out for an eye opener last summer. His property is awesome...kinda like a jurassic park. And kevin, I'm gonna have you over some morning if you accept, this summer, so you can experience a lake Huron sunrise through the trees...8, 9 am. Doug, you too. Even with all the trees between my cabin and the water, the filtered direct sunlight and the sunlight reflecting off the water penetrates the branches and illuminates the leaves and the trees. You can see the sparkling lake through the cedar, pople, balsam, spruce, birch and dogwood screen. It is beautiful. Without the trees, that intense sun would cause most people to pull the shades. I have no shades in my cabin. Just a cathedral of trees. Makes paying those extra dollars on taxes worth it.
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Point
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a question for the shoreline preservationists, where were you all last year when Planning Commission and Township Board approved a Trialer Park/Campground next to the bar. That will certainly look great from the shoreline. No one wanted to hog tie anyone then or do these proposed rules only apply to some folks!
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From watching our own city counsel and reading all of this about those on the township on BBI? What a mess..... I am sure that those on the township have done some real good and so lets hear about that too. Next to the bar? Kidding right?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Trialer Park/Campground next to the bar


Barb put in hook ups for 3 campers.. She is in a commercially zoned area. That spot used to have 3 cabins.. She was well within her rights.. She didn't put them on the beach or cut down any trees.. And she ran it through the proper channels.. Anything else? Very Happy Forgot to mention.. The camper spots are behind a filtered view of trees so don't look too bad from the water..
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Point
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually it is approved for 5 slots, so we can look at 5 trailers all summer rather than the cabins. I first noticed the one trailer this year while in my boat. The trees don't hide them. I personally don't have a problem with them, but I would have assumed people who want to preserve the shoreline view would have gone ape.

Barb was most certainly within her rights, but so is a land owner who wants to view the water. That was my point, it should apply to everyone. If you are preserving the shoreline, no new eye sores should be added. Get five families drinking and fighting on Saturday night, it will be just like hooterville. Graham will love it, Ye ha!!!!!!!
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Point
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

7-11 for the old boathouse sounds like a winner, besides it would be well hidden by the trees. Folks tossed out the last township board because they didn't like them either. The next board will have their own agenda as well and folks will want them out. Small town america is never satisfied with their politicians, so they do the best they can with what they have to work with. And they lived happily ever after!!!!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good for Barb.. I hope she fills them all.. Commercial and Shoreline are two different subjects and off point really.. I don't need to defend anyone really, just wanted to answer your concern.. And your point was, Point? Confused
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What part of this thread turned into a township bashing thread. This is not what it is about. And mr guest it is easy to bash someone when no won knows who you are, which I'm pretty sure you did that on purpose but if you want to bash someone have the guts to put your name behind it. John and I disagree on many things here but we don't bash each other, maybe a little teasing but thats it. This is a discussion nothing else. There is no need to get mad at anybody on this site, or off. If you don't like what the township board is doing or has done then voice your oppion to them and vote them out. And you should go to the meetings if you have anything to say or complain about.
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NJean
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like what Al's Sister said in her last 2 posts!!!!

Does anyone know what Point's point is or is he just a cronic complainer????
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John
I hope you are making breakfast if I come over that early. As I can set in my mothers house and watch the sun come up through the trees and also I can watch it set. But if you are inviting me for breakfast I will be there. I grew up on bob-lo in that very same house and as a kid I can remember watching the boats and the waves in the summer and the winter we used to watch the fox and the coyotes out on the ice. As I got older we used to watch the snowmobiles come over from Cheboygan, also people would drive there cars across to Cheboygan and I used to watch them. I like seeing all the different activity out in the straits. I don't like that darn road in the front of me though. I see what you are saying John but, I don't like to keep making laws to put on people and there properities, it never stops. That doesn't help us, it restricts us in the long run. Not everyone clears out there properity completly to the water and a lot that do plants different kinds of trees back. There is a lot of trees on the beach sides that are dead and need to be cleared out.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my last post on this circular subject. I don’t think I have left much out.

I also think it is time for a reality check.

I endorse the concept of a “shoreline overlay” or whatever the term now stands at. It is good for the environment and natural aesthetics of the island.

BUT… I see some huge problems forthcoming, unless consideration is given to practicality.

We have two camps here:

Those looking forward… who want the island to be for future generations, as it is now. The “preservationists” who see greater good as collective neighbors with the same vision.

AND:

Those, by merit of paying higher waterfront taxes, feel they are entitled to do as they choose, or do for themselves ahead of any long term management strategy.


Both have valid viewpoints. I also think there would be some compromise?

If this preservation act is presented as an outright law, mandate, or whatever you want to call it, I am not sure it would pass. The reason is simple: How (or by Who) would it ever be enforced? By a platoon of tree police in camo combat suits? Seizing chainsaws and blowing up stump grinders? Perpetually on patrol along the shoreline with infra-red tree removal detectors? Of course I am being sarcastic... But what good is an ordinance unless it can be enforced and is wanted by an overwhelming majority?

In the shoreline overlay document, this "enforcement problem" was discussed. Their solution was “education”. That’s all well and good, assuming someone wants to “get educated”. I don’t believe it is possible to teach land use ethics. I think it is acquired over a lifetime and maybe more of a philosophy or way of life? Sort of a "Leave it as you found it" approach to our own short time on this earth.

The DNR/DEQ tells waterfront owners what sort of dock they can have and along list of “can’t do s” that once were not even in question. But seem to be accepted up to a point. People will always find a "work around".

Example: It is required to have a wetland/endangered species study done before permits are issued. You have endangered plants? You have some Roundup? End of problem BEFORE the study is done.

Example: You have a "greenbelt ordinance"? Trees disappear before permits are sought, ie. “It was like that when I bought it” Or trees removed after the building is finished and inspections are done. Normally, there is some provision for the removal of “dead, down or dangerous” trees. Did that tree die because of bleach poured on its roots? “Whoops, the tractor knocked that one over“… OR, “it was dead so I cut it”. And who proves it wasn’t, after it is gone?

I don’t condone either of the above. But this is realistically what will happen when something is forced on someone, they don’t happen to agree with. The tree police would have to be on duty 24/7.

I have brought up the situation in Butler County, Wisconsin several times. One response was “I don’t live in Wisconsin.” Neither do I, but there is an example of a parallel situation, which was approached in terms of reality, satisfying both camps. Perhaps “the compromise”.

This wasn’t an ordinance, but a PROGRAM to restore and revitalize denuded shorelines and help remedy environmental problems resulting from decades of doing nothing; An after the fact fix. In the first year, the positive response was huge. So I would say it is working. Even if a positive response if say 50%, it is better than zippo.

Waterfront landowners have the option of revitalizing or restoring a “greenbelt” (I am starting to not like that term, either, because it implies an unmanaged jungle)… Leaving it as is… restoring what was once there, or cutting down every tree and bringing in the sod and fertilizer. Their option. No one is making them do anything. It is a program!

Using the “I pay waterfront tax, so I am entitled to do what I want" (argument) , the PROGRAM appears to use this entitlement arguement to make it work. Those wanting “the view” were not further penalized. Those wanting to improve or restore a tree line were rewarded by property tax “green” credit relief. An incentive. A nice little sign to stick out front proclaiming “environmental consciousness”. (or whatever it says).

That certainly seems fair enough to me. Trying to steer this back on a positive track:

Suggestion: Perhaps the way to approach this (assuming some degree of support) is within a pilot test program, say over 5-10 years. Something similar to the Wisconsin PROGRAM where there are options with incentives. Landowners choice.

That would be long enough to determine which waterfront properties gain/lose value. At the end of this period, the PROGRAM will either succeed or fail. It could be scrapped, kept status quo (as a PROGRAM), or elevated to an ordinance if there was a lot of support.

Personally, I believe it would attract potential waterfront property buyers that were ”good for the island” and elevate land values. But this is just my opinion which is based on my experience elsewhere, as a property owner within a shoreline protected area.

This “rational approach” would, of course, require serious consideration, involvement and cooperation of the township. How to get the townships attention, seems to be a question that many have.

Change takes time. People resist abrupt change. There is no way see whether something like this would actually succeed, until it is tried. Sometimes doing nothing, isn't the right decision, either.

On my desk, I have little metal thing/sign that was my dads. It says:

"Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome"

I will leave you with that thought.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Preservation Reply with quote

Breakfast it is, Kevin.

In one of your earlier post, you mentioned some of the sensory pleasures of living near the water's edge. The sound of the waves, the wind, the call of a loon, the smell of the shoreline air, the eerie fog, the 'peepers' toads in the spring, and of course the fog horn are pleasures that can be enjoyed without changing the land.

While I'm in my cabin I am quite often busy making breakfast, working on the interior, reading, watching TV, sleeping, drinking with friends, etc. The actual water currently is six or seven hundred feet from my windows facing the water. If I was a "normal" up north vacationer, I would have cleared the frontage to see the water. "I love looking at the water." Don't get me wrong. But just how much time can a person spend just looking at the water? If it is windy, the water is full of whitecaps. If it is calm, the water is flat. If it is night, you can't see the water. If I'm gone for the season, I am not looking at the water. Is it justifiable to cut that old natural growth just to see the water (when I am there) for a glance whenever I want it? At this point in my life I am healthy enough to walk the 100' beyond the trees to see the open expanse and the water whenever I want. And I do this quite often. Sometimes I just stand for a few minutes, perhaps drinking coffee, and take in the view. Other times I spend an hour walking and looking at everything from horizon to the forest edge. I am fortunate beyond description. I feel I have taken enough nature just by clearing my cabin site.

And doesn't it seem crazy to clear the native plants and trees to simply replant something else?

Do you eat greasy or do you need healthy breakfast foods?

Check out the Album, Sharing section, I'm going to post some "Trailer" shots. I have no problem with trailers...until they are exposed by cutting shoreline growth. I will probably step on some toes...sorry...but obviously these people wanted us to see their trailers.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis you can't quit posting this has been the best post since the politics. Keeps the site from being boring. I'm running out of things to say.

John I like any breakfast just don't make it slide down to easy. And you keep walking down to see the water with your cup of coffee and I will just look out my window with my cup of coffee. Thinking I should build a dock out there for my boat.
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doug miller
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis: I always appreciate your perspective. However, I think your description of the two camps is inaccurate--it kind of makes it look like there is a 'put the island ahead of personal interests' selfless camp and the "what's mine is mine" selfish camp. But that is not how I see the two camps.

I think it comes down to personal choices about what we believe makes the island beautiful and what should be done to preserve that beauty. Some like a mostly wild island and some like a partially wild/partially cultivated island. I for one love to go to the Pines to walk down what I think is the only sidewalk on the island and look at the quaint houses, the lawns that are the mowing kind, the boathouses, the old cedars, the water and the gazebo. It is the mix of cultivated and wild that I find beautiful. I even like the fact my young son can ride, if slowly, his small bike on that sidewalk. It doesn't mean I would like to see sidewalks or paved roads all over the island, but I think that little stretch of the island improves the beauty of the island and makes it a better place. And as I have said before, I also like to see a small cottage set in a well-tended setting, and to see the small gardens that some have planted.

Without getting too metaphysical, where 'nature in the raw' and people mix, there has to be some accomodation or the people are gonna be in big trouble. As I have said, I think almost all of us agree that we want to preserve nature to the extent we can while still allowing us to live in relative comfort. We just disagree on where the lines should be drawn.

As the posts have shown, I think many on the island also find these things beautiful. And because of that, we ARE thinking of the future of the island when we express our perspective. Specifically, I am thinking about the kind of place I would like my son to enjoy 50 or 60 years from now. And I agree that for that to happen we have to work hard to preserve much of what the island is now. But I would also like to preserve the balance of wild and cultivated and I don't think the cultivated necessarily takes away from the island's beauty.

Finally, I think the fungus that is attacking the Beech trees will probably do more harm to the natural beauty of the island than anything else. Does anyone know what, if anything, we can do to save some of those trees, even if it is just a small number?

Anyway, since I think I am mostly repeating myself, I will also stop posting on this subject.

Hey Kevin, maybe its time to talk politics again . . . ! I'm kidding (mostly).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug.

Maybe "two camps" would be better termed two philosophies. I think we can both see a spectrum of ideology.

I agree on most of the rest of what you said. How cool is the Pines? What a classic place. Those old cottages lend character to BBI. The history being their charm. Would it look "lame" if they couldn't be seen from the water? On the flip side is a plastic- fantastic butt ugly house sitting in the middle of a total gouge in one of BBIs interior lakes. Zero consideration of anything else. It, to me, looks like a big ZIT. I find it offensive. Because it IS offensive by contrast.

My point on my last post was compromise. Gradual change over a period. Maybe not even island wide. But maybe focsued on less developed, more pristene wild areas to preserve THAT. Something for everyone?

The beech trees? Not good. This fungus thing, I understand, is hard to stop once it gets a hold. Microsized spores moved by the wind. Thought are it originated from some infected area in the UP.

I talked my former neighbor, a forrester for the DNR who oversees BBI. He was the first to give me a heads up on the situation. What he told me is the only possible fix is a "surgical cut swath" around the infected area. And thats not for sure. That or mega bucks to come in and "wash" the trees with some spore killing agent.

Some other time, I will tell you about Cockburn Island, just east of Drummond Island (Canadian). Wild-Pristene preserved, undeveloped, no stores, no ferry, zero population except for 100 or so summer residents of an "abandoned" settlement called Tolsmaville. You would have to be a certified nature freak to enjoy the place and want to be there. Cockburn is 30% larger than BBI. Save that for later. I am going for two weeks to visit and photograph. A visit there puts things into perspective. Absolutely fascinating place. Resembles BBI in landscape.

Pardon my typos. I am running behind this afternoon.

Almost forgot, Make note of some of the "rustic lawns" in the pines. Full of brakens and wild woods fescue grass. Quite "natural" looking. That sort of thig just don't fly in Ferndale. Think we outta get on 'em?
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Last edited by Conis on Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis, your posts are very interesting.

Last edited by Squeaky on Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Just a couple things... I live on the newly designated and protected Upper Manistee.. From what I understand the riparian owners have prevented that designation for better than 10 years.. It's a wonderful stretch to live on and the riparian owners were finally convinced thru awareness and education provided by the Upper Manistee River Association.. Now there is an idea for ya..

I also feel the least the township should morally do is create a phamplet of educational information on the beauty and fragility of the ecosystem on the Island and to encourage the community to look at ways to preserve it.. Or at least help fund BISI to do it for them.. Cool

Peace..
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al's Sister wrote:
Very Happy Just a couple things... I live on the newly designated and protected Upper Manistee.. From what I understand the riparian owners have prevented that designation for better than 10 years.. It's a wonderful stretch to live on and the riparian owners were finally convinced thru awareness and education provided by the Upper Manistee River Association.. Now there is an idea for ya..

I also feel the least the township should morally do is create a phamplet of educational information on the beauty and fragility of the ecosystem on the Island and to encourage the community to look at ways to preserve it.. Or at least help fund BISI to do it for them.. Cool

Peace..


Amen Susie. It takes a while to make a change. That change isn't appreciated until the results are seen as a contrast to what has been let-go, as many years later.
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