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DNR proposes doubling+ hunting fishing licenses.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: DNR proposes doubling+ hunting fishing licenses. Reply with quote

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-34/1171554960246600.xml&coll=6

Thats right. DNR is 30% smaller than is was 10 years ago. Does this mean more efficient? Unlikely.

Pay more for less. They want to double, triple, quadruple hunting and fishing licenses costs.

Welcome to Michigan. At some point, the DNR and others will figure out that the well has run dry, citizens are tapped out. Raising the cost to hunt/fish recreationally will blow up in their face. When a deer license is $100 or $125... People will either afford it, forget it or poach. Never mind all the local revenue once generated, potentially lost.

Watch out for boat licenses too. Never mind boating in michigan is much less than what it was 5 years ago. So michigan is going to tap that and further cripple boating in Michigan?

At what exactly is it we get for sled registrations and trail permits when we don't even use the state-groomed trails? My sled is parked in my yard, tags expired. I am not spending $50. They can go gouge someone else. Money the state WON'T get from me, this year. Ditto on my boat tags.

Just what if: Michigan doubled deer/fishing licenses? I would dare say, 30-40% fewer would by them. Be cheaper to go to Canada to fish for a few days. Or at least no more expensive with far better fishing.

When "business" is bad, raise the prices? Welcome to Michigan. Lets make everything as expensive as possible so only the rich can afford it? Which is about what has brought this situation to where it stands. Tapped out for many. Park it and pay the light bill instead.

The only up-side is this effort has seemingly hit a political brick wall, at least for now.

http://www.michiganhuntingtoday.com/articles/hare/openletter.html

What do YOU think?
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Last edited by Conis on Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Cindy Childs
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad you asked what I think... Twisted Evil I have preached to the choir down here all week so I might as well go on-line with it. I think ALL of the politicians from the governor on down to the lowest township/city/village rep needs to get it through their head that the hey days of spend and free programs is over. Take a look at history and offer what the revenues will support. If they continue to tax the small businesses in this state at the rate of the last 5 years someone is going to have to turn off the lights and we'll just stop existing as a state. Individuals cannot keep up with rising costs to live here. And what is the state doing? Trying to create more free programs. Mad They should help people get work, be a bit more hospitable to business and turn the tide. What good does closing 20 mom & pop places that employ 10 people each do? They get replaced by a bigger chain operation that payrolls 35 people, where do the other 165 people get work at? Sooner or later it catches up and folks we are living in the "it caught up" years. No one wants to see things slashed, but somethings gotta give. All raising licensing is going to do is encourage people who need to hunt to put food on the table to do it in an illegal manner. If they can't afford groceries they surely can't afford the new license fees. And we didn't put any stickers on our sleds this year either - never had them out of the yard, so my new 1998 sled with 1700 miles on it is still like new! Wow do I feel better! This is better than therapy! Cheaper too Razz
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: prices Reply with quote

You got that right Cindy !! #Mad
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A well directed and appropriate rant, never hurts.

Things are totally out of hand, no doubt about that. Somewhere I read that Michigan is near the very top in highest cost of living, all taxes included. And raising recreational use "fees" is just another tax.

Sleds: It is tax on tax on tax. A sled costs x dollars. Sales tax. Gas in it, more tax, (never mind they aren't used on the highway). Trail use Registration and a trail permit. Would it be fair to call these permits a tax? I probably overlooked several other state imposed costs/taxes.

The DNR is 30% smaller? So does this mean the operating costs are 30% less or that poachers are 30% less likely to get busted when they can't afford to do things legally. Or does this mean the cost of deer and fish, (the ones that belong to the people of michigan), that the DNR is selling to us and "managing"... has risen sharply? Its like buying an elevator pass.

Trail permits. OK. I don't use the snomobile trails. If I did and the state covered the full cost of maintaining them (which they don't). I wouldn't gripe about a use permit. This would be the same permit that ought to be applied to hikers, biker, skiers to use these same trails. Since I prefer NOT to use these trails, why am I obligated to subsidize them.

All the revenues generated to restaurants, motels, grocery stores during hunting and sled season? Oh well. Just raise the cost to offset the deficit.
How much does it cost a family of 4 to haul sleds up and back for a weekend? $500? Whoops... dad lost his job, so that's off the things to do list.

This could easily turn into a classic conis long one.

What outrages me most in this lame proposal, was the license cost increases to seniors; those on fixed incomes. Let them eat cake.

Hey. If the management costs of some of these "program's" is running in the red. Give them the ax. Some of these programs simply take on a life of their own and and never have been cost effective.

Just what if: Michigan took the ax to all these taxes and permits and fees, enticed business into michigan, made tourism affordable to out of staters?

Remember reading about the boston tea party?

#Mad #Mad #Mad #Mad
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Just what if: Michigan took the ax to all these taxes and permits and fees, enticed business into michigan, made tourism affordable to out of staters?

Remember reading about the boston tea party?


Conis my friend, you are starting to sound like a ( THE R word ) but your friend will still like you... I know I do..
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cindy
I think you are right and I think that the fees that were proposed went down on liciense. But there is still one out there on services that we are trying to kill right know. A tax on services what the h---- is this all about anyway. Cindy is right the last one out please turn off the lights, they might find away to taxes on that.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"If you can dream it, they can tax it."

The pathetic part, (don't take this wrong).

Who is the "stupidist" (is that a word)?

    The parasite goverment looking for new improved ways to drain every last drop of blood, until there is nothing left. About where we seem to be at present?

    Or those willing to turn a blind eye, bend over and accept it?

There is little I can do personally in some areas. Plenty I can do in others.
I can do without recreation use taxes, permits and licenses, lotto tickets, all the elective tax expenses. Buying items from out of state suppliers doesn't help michigans economy, but it prevents them making 6% for absolutely nothing.

At one point, Michigan was trying to figure out some way to tax goods sold at retail, to customers in michigan, from sources NOT in michigan. Gee they couldn't figure out how to get x million out of state retailers to comply? I am not sure where things stand with "use tax".

I need to quit posting on this subject. Blood pressure concerns. Someone elses turn to rant.
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doug miller
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, use tax!

In fact, Michigan has had a use tax since it enacted the sales tax in about 1934. It has always applied to purchases made out of state by Michigan residents. Part of it is no doubt a protection for instate retailers, especially those near the border. The difference is that, with the internet, people have much more opportunity to buy stuff from other states and not pay Michigan tax. It gets a bit complicated--you can get credit for sales tax paid in other states, etc., but the bottom line is, if you buy cigarettes, cottage packages, cars, you name it from outside of Michigan, you will owe use tax on it here. Course, as a practical matter it was in most cases hard to enforce. That is why you pay use tax on a car you buy out of state at the time you register it with the Secretary of State.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You make lots of good points about those taxes and fees, Conis.

How we feel about different taxes and fees is no doubt related to our various economic states--working, retired, etc, and which taxes or fees impacts us.

Because I don't hunt and have not fished in a long time (way too long), the doubling of the fees bugs me in theory but not in practice.

On the other hand, because I have been working a long time and, with a 5 year old, will no doubt still be working for a long time, I am concerned about the Alternative Minimum Tax and the probability that some of the Bush tax cuts will end in 2008 or 2009. That is going to cost a lot of people who are, or who consider themselves to be, middle class--a lot of money, thousands of dollars a year.

Apparently, the AMT was created back in the late 60s (I think) as a tax on the rich. But it was not tied to increases in the cost of living, so now certain families--such as those with more than 2 kids or mortgage interest deductions, who make $60,000+ are going to be hit with the higher tax unless Congress does something about it. Its gonna get interesting because it is this year and for the next couple that the AMT will really start to hit people. My guess is some of us who post here who never paid the AMT will do so this year or next. And I think a lot of people are gonna get mad since, it effectively takes your tax rate from about 15% on income over a certain amount to 26%. Ouch.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there is much that can't be bought on line. Nor would I have a clue how Michigan can stop it or collect use tax unless it was a high $ item.

Sin TAX:

I just looked on line. I didn't know you could buy liquor on line? Sure can. have a ccard and someone over 21 signs for it. Are these vendors required by the feds to collect tax for each state? No Idea.

Tobacco products: Google in that one. Find thousands of vendors, many operated by Seneca Indians who do NOT pay fed taxes and and exporting cigarettes by the billions to all states, TAX FREE. Thats right. usually at about 50% cost of same brands in say Michigan? And they still make money.

I recall reading an article not long ago, that Michigan was going after them and attempting to subpoena sales records then go back and charge Michigan residents what they owed. Like that actually went anywhere? Likewise, I don't think it would be a real smart idea to resell these?

I think people are getting smarter about shopping on line to get around sales taxes.

I also recall some other ill conceived plan where adjoining states would reciprocally collect each other sales taxes. This was pre internet. That went nowhere. Get one state that won't play along... then they become "duty free" and let the business roll in. Or maybe it was like a federal VAT tax scheme that was supposed to replace state sale taxes. I don't remember. It wasn't cost effective 20 years ago.

We are all going to be back to bartering before long. Remember when that was big and the state got all jammed up because they could'nt figure out how to tax a concept. Join a barter club and work on "credits". Too funny.

Lets see... have a tooth filled and you owe a rick of firewood and 2 chickens. Kind of like the Amish operate. Good for them!
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raising taxes on everything.... How in the world does our governor think that we are going to pay more for everything? The people in this state are loosing their jobs faster than we can blink any eye. Business are closing down. Look at GM.... And these free programs-free rides will come to an end also. Where will the money come from to provide for them? Could it be the tax payer that is paying to much now? In a sense it seems like people are being forced to move to other states, where ever that may be.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah... They are moving out by the tens/thousands. No jobs. If there were, it is just getting too expensive to try and live here. Well overdue to come up with a new strategy besides "shoot the stragglers before they get over the line".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As some of you may recall: Rudy (from WV) and I staged a successful assault on the Isle Of Bobloette (in lake Thompson) in winter of 2005. There was no resistance. We proclaimed it a soverign nation. The constitution amount to one sentence. NO DANG TAXES!

Well... with the way things are shaping up (or falling apart). We decided to make Bobloette duty free and put a trading post out there. We'll trade beaver pelts for cheap whiskey, knives for guns, goats for chickens, Whatever you have in your canoe including your canoe. Bring it. Sorry, no credit card machine...


I just looked at this. Must have been written on a slow saturday night.
http://www.bois-blanc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4912#4912
The bobloette epic.
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is Rudy? Wasn't he the gentlemen that did or was thinking of putting in for the teacher's position there on the Island? Is he still in WV? Beautiful country!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah thats him. wanted the teaching job on BBI.

Sort of dropped off the BBI site. On a few times in the spring. Had some health issues he thought resolved.

He was a lot of fun on the site. Lets bomb him with PMS and see if we can't get him back!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wowee - this topic has hit a nerve...

First off, I don't want to pay more for anthing than I have to - I'm not given to throwing good $ after bad just for the heck of it. I also participate in many of the activities that posters are balking about paying more for. Like any issue or argument, there are two sides to it, with many variations to each side.

Do I arbitrarily want to have my hunting license jacked up? Nope...Here's an argument for the ages in that there are those who say they aren't getting their money's worth from the DNR as it is now. I'll narrow it to BBI where some say "We ought to have new stock brought in..." "Do some clear cutting to open up the browse..." "Don't allow doe permits..." - the list goes on and on, with the salient point being that everyone has some sure-fire solution to any and all problems. I don't for a second think that every cent I spend on a license goes for enhancing the quality of the herd or the hunt. It's not easy to say what pays for what. Take a few deep breaths and ask yourself if you want hunting/fishing to be free - no seasons, no limits on anything, any time. How long do you think the herds and fish population would hold up? Sure you can say to yourself that my deer or my fish won't hurt anything, but WTF will happen over time when everyone says and believes that? Since human nature in a good many folks leaves a lot to be desired, we truly need an agency to keep it running smoothly. Is there anyone reading this that would be tickled to death to be getting wages as they were paid in 1980? 1990? If your boss said I'm going to give you a raise, would you say politely, "No thanks, I'm perfectly happy." My point is that 99% of anyone reading this doesn't see anything wrong with wanting a raise for what they do, yet when someone else, even something as nebulous as a govenmental agency (who in turn pays employees) wants to raise fees for providing a service to you, it's like you're being robbed at gunpoint. Give me a break...My folks paid $3,800 for their home in the '40's - would I like the same deal? Would you? Duhhh?

I like to fish - many whine like a motor with the bearings going out that fishing isn't what it used to be. I'll admit I do too from time to time. I pitch a fit when my favorite lake is taken off the re-stocking program. Yet overall, where would the fisheries be if no one stepped in to control lampreys, or looked into what causes various viruses to spread like wildfire through the habitat. Folks, this isn't free, and someone is going to have to pay for it. I don't think it's right for the guy/gal who never uses any of these things to be expected to foot the bill for it, but those who hunt/fish/boat/snowmobile should be expected to subsidize the costs. I shudder to think what boating would be like if someone didn't keep the jet-ski idiots in check through the hiring of law enforcement personnel and licensing. There ought to be a bag limit on them, frankly...

I use the groomed trails - I don't want to have someone else pay for their maintenance. Got any idea how much those big Deere's cost that you see pulling a groomer? How about the custom groomers? Do you think it's a coincidence that that there are never any downed trees/limbs on the trails? That maybe the good folks that use the trails just politely pull over, unpack the Stihl, and cut for a while? Would you do it for free? Would you do it all?

Bottom line, if you use it, be prepared to pay a fair price for it. We all want a good value for the dollar, but the next time your aorta is about to rupture because of the perceived injustices when it comes to the cost of anything, there is another individual, on the other side, trying to get by, just as you are. Whether or not it's the Feds, the State, or a private company who signs his paycheck, that poor slob out in the woods clearing snowmobile trails, or dumping a load of fingerlings into your favorite lake is not looking for anything that you're not. Conis, you don't sell your clocks for less than it costs you to put them out do you? You'd like to make a little something on them, right? As long as the user fees support the activity, and at least maintain the status quo or hopefully put something aside to improve it, I have no heartburn with paying my own way. Those that are "putting meat on the table" aren't going to feed the family without poaching even if the license is free. Doubling the cost of a license isn't going to cause that individual to do something he wouldn't do anyway. You're not putting 1,000 pounds of venison into the freezer with a single buck - if you are, I want to know where you're hunting.

It is reasonable to pay for what you use - last time I looked, no one was advertising the 'buffet of life' for $7.95. If you don't want to pay for it, that's your choice, your right. Fence in your own property, bring in your own stock, dig your own pond/lake and stock it. Clear your own trails and groom them for sledding to your heart's content. See if you can pull that off for the cost of a $25 trail permit (.06 cents/day), $75 for a hunting license (.20 cents a day), or a $40 fishing license (.11 cents/day). If you've done a great job at all of the above, let me know, and I'll come and pay you a fair user fee to participate in what you have set up.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony...

Thanks for refining in a few paragraphs what Conis would have said in 900 paragraphs. All details included.

I don't certainly don't think think Michigan's fish and game can survive without INTELLEGENT management. I hope I didn't covey this?

There is, however , a point where "management " of a resource can be exploited into a profit-market. THAT'S what I gripe about. To me, Michigans renewable wildlife resources appear to be little more than a salable commodity to the DNR... being under huge pressure from the gov't to "turn a profit". I don't see scientific herd management or fish stocking, just exploitation on a wild-A guess of what is sustainable to keep the $$$ rolling in. Michigan $$ is in a jam and counting on DNR, to help fill the gap. Inclusive of state land sale and over timbering if it will turn a profit.

I will pay for fairly priced costs associated with recreation. I won't subsidize every one elses, by proximity. This is where the sled-trail user$$ has ended up. Those using should pay. (all including non sled users.) Those not? I am a NOT.

What you get for the cost. Bottom line. My take is the tapped out middle class in Michigan in close to saying "to hell with it all" due to increases/ permits/fees and taxes. Bad economy and marketing of recreational resources.

Management cost-fine. Freebe- NO. Exploitation to enhance gov't revenues? Now I get mad.

I am glad this has touched a nerve. It needs to. We all need to stop and think about "fair" and paying for the goods and service we get relative to cost. I certainly don't live a lifestyle of the rich and famous. When it gets to a point where I cannot afford to hunt or fish in the state I have always lived in. I would tend to take it personally. Maybe that's just me. And this is what I see coming.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Add on:

I know MANY who work for the DNR. In the field "grunts". Things aren't good. work twice as hard for the same or less. Beneifts cut back but glad to still have a job.

The DNR $$$ is being wasted by inefficiency and multiple tiered managements in several agencies which was once the Michigan Dept of Conservation. The top props themselves up. Those in the field get cut or exploited. Foresters or biologists filling in driving dozers and dump trucks?

There is the problem DNR, DEQ, MNRC. Whos on first? Way too many pencil pushers. Top heavy $$ seekers. Zippo left by the time it actually hits bottom.

Things have all been restructured to make it all more "effective"= bigger and more $ income to the state. Lost was "efficient".

Ditto with the rest of our government. One huge grossly ineffective money sucking parasitic bureaucracy. ( did I hold back?)
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Add on #2: Excuse my BIG rant here

I am going to be sarcastic here, but not by a long stretch: Why money is being wasted.

Lets say The DNR needs a pencil sharpened. Who can authorize this?

This requires a 3-5 year study with parallel involvement of the DEQ, MNRC to weight out science, liability, politics. Get all the ducks in a row between three agencies, Move it upstairs, seek funding.

Maybe, maybe not, the pencil sharpening appropriations act is passed. If everyone agrees, and it is PC and money can me mustered, (by taxes/levies by raising the hunting fishing licenses).

Good to go after 3 million in research and 30000000 man hours.

Sharpen the pencil?

WHOA HOLD THAT TRAIN! The pencil sharpener is next in question? Repeat process all over. More study.

6mil and 6000000 man hours later… Pencil and sharpener are approved.

NOPE.

The fish stocking bill can only be signed in INK. Square one with it all.

What the hell ever happened to the days when someone competent in a position of management -authority could walk over to the pencil sharpener, sharpen a pencil and sign off on something as simple as “Put 5000 trout in the river”?

Liability? No one wants to take a hit with a wrong decision so every item-issue has to be consensus? Shared responsibility x several overlapping state agencies? No wonder a dang trout cost a grand for all the overhead and paperwork. The trout was free. The decision to plant it cost extra. Who pays? DUH.

(sarcasm ends)

Ok then.

Why did it take 10yYears to open the snowmobile trail between Indian River and Cheboygan when the land was legally acquired by the state for that specific purpose ..Legal and political issues? It had to be PC and $$ in for the state before WE got what WE paid for?

Why did the DNR turn a blind eye to the shooting of cormorants by citizens of Cedarville/Hessel when they knew exactly what it would take to fix the problem… and were bound by having things “studied further” for 7 years. And meanwhile, the perch fishery iwas in the toilet to the tune of x million $ a year?

Meanwhile the DNR/FWS is out here putting vegetable oil on the eggs of cormorants on cormorant -infested trashed islands to display the acceptable PC bio-fix. How much $$$ researched/wasted there? While others from the same area figured out that 4 raccoons per island would be WAY more effective,… (and did so without asking permission) and the rest that just got fed up with all and filled fishing boats with empty 12 gauge shotgun hulls, getting right to the point.. It got fixed but not with effective help from our state agencies that could have fixed things before they got out of hand. Millions of dollars wasted dealing with the “cormorant vs. fisheries “issue when any idiot could see: DUH too many cormorants eating too many fish. Management required? Define management. Do a study to define that.

There is where our money has gone. Do a study about it , Drag it out, make sure it is PC and min liability and all agencies on the same page blah blah blah.

I appreciate resource management as a science but only up to the point that is doesn't take on a life of its own... like the PC-BIO-FIX energizer bunny.

I will pay for management. I won’t pay for all the crap which now disables sane, focused, efficient resource management . By the time it gets down to that point, there is nothing left.

The decision to put veg oil on the Cormorant eggs? The Oil cost $20 bucks The labor maybe a grand. The decision? Millions. All other local solutions, the ones with the most effect, much less. Finally that issue seems under contol. Don't thank the DNR or FWS for the solution.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You both make sense.. Conis, you know with waiting all the years we have to settle stuff with the DNR and State I see your side real clear.. The trees going down around our place will indirectly pay for the new put-in on the river and close the one we have next door..The Grass Roots made it happen.. I don't think the DNR would of done a thing without thier nose rubbed in it..

side note.. We have one DNR officer for 3 counties.. Poor guy.. Crying or Very sad

For a couple years now the DNR has been hosting public forums to discuss permits and solutions with the public.. I missed the last one. I had already told an official in the past that they ought to permit every river access too! Spank me later but I needed some things done around here.. Laughing Tony, Right on! Couldn't of said it better..
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis...bombing someone with
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PMS
is a woman's job......LOL!
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TonyDriza
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Googled 'Michigan DNR Budget' and found a few pretty interesting articles. One from the Free Press caught my eye:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070222/SPORTS10/702220383/1058

This article mentioned that the current DNR budget consists of 9% from the Michigan General fund, down from a high of 38% in the 50's. Quite a drop! There is some federal funding (not much) - the bulk comes from restricted funding, which is largely license and user fees. The State isn't going to get rich off of increased revenue from the DNR - the DNR is just trying to stay afloat as other funding sources dry up.

I agree with Conis that there is waste within the DNR of monumental proportions (just as there is in just about any governmental unit - remember the NASA study to find a pen that would write in space when the Russians just use a pencil? That's tough to get rid of - the lobbyists and politicians are responsible for much, but not all of the problem it would seem. That makes me a lot angrier than paying $30 for a license - their arrogant attitude of "we always know what's best for the resources", and then they still mess it up, in the case of the cormorant issue.

I won't go so far as to agree with the Free Press writer that the entire citizenry should pay for the DNR, but there are likely many who use the land for non-hunting, non-fishing, non-snowmobiling activities. Activities like hiking, backpacking, photography (sorry Susie), kayaking. There's no charge to do any of these on State lands as we speak (unless you're camping at a State Park...). What would be so wrong with selling a yearly use tag to those who want to use the property for other than hunting/fishing? After all, they do benefit directly from the lands they are using. It's interesting too that the Press article mentions that while the cost of a resident fishing license has risen just about proportionately with the Consumer Price Index, the cost of a hunting license isn't close. That has been one of the best deals around for a long time (it should be around $25 if adjusted for the CPI since the late 40's).

As funding for the DNR drops from the General fund, it's going to have to be made up elsewhere. Someone with an eye as to how to cut the remaining fat out of the DNR could help, but's that tougher to root out (not that it shouldn't be tried...). I know a couple of DNR guys, and like the Coast Guard, they have been asked to do so much with so little for so long that most politicans now feel they can do almost anything with nothing (no funding) - not going to happen. Gov. Granholm's proposed budget included even less going to the DNR.

It's a tough one to solve that keeps everyone happy, and the resources well managed.

Cheers......................Tony
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I won't go so far as to agree with the Free Press writer that the entire citizenry should pay for the DNR, but there are likely many who use the land for non-hunting, non-fishing, non-snowmobiling activities. Activities like hiking, backpacking, photography (sorry Susie), kayaking. There's no charge to do any of these on State lands as we speak (unless you're camping at a State Park...). What would be so wrong with selling a yearly use tag to those who want to use the property for other than hunting/fishing? After all, they do benefit directly from the lands they are using


I totally agree! In Washington State they have it that way. I thought it was an excellent idea.. River access permits would haul in a lot of buckeroos.. Cool
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to back off the DNR bashing for a while.

1. There is no sport to it.
2. There is serious dissention in the ranks. Not only are employees being laid off, many are quitting out of frustration and discouragement
3. The poor suckers at the bottom in the field and overworked and underpaid.
4. The poor suckers at the bottom and not privledged to fire the platoon of stuffed shirt, pencil pusher "lets do a study about it, to justify our existance" decision makers, upstairs.
5. With out input from those in the field and public, the decision makers are clueless as to whats going on in the real world. Decisions based on?
6 The DNR is in the same bind as most other huge bureaucracies ( toss the automakers in as well). Like a house of cards. Top heavy with management...kind of like dinosaurs that once thrived when the michigan money well still flowed.
6. Because of all of the above and more. The DNR has had nothing but bad press for a decade. I haven't even touched the dysfunctional DEQ or MNRC for fear this would be a 14 volume book on mis management.
7. Etc.

Ever read the book "The Peter Principal" which discusses bureaucracy under the premise that those who succeed "rise to the level of their own incompetence". AMEN!

That snomobile trail between Indian River and Cheboygan. I hate to continue bringing this up and wouldn't if it weren't such a glaring example.

That strecth of railroad grade was purchased with taxpayers dollars a decade or more ago. Had it been opened as promised the +economic impact to the area would have been huge. As proven this year with this link now opened.

NOPE, the property owners threatened lawsuits. Many of them orchestrated by attorneys who happened to own Mullet lake property. They complained noise and safety issues. Never mind their places are shut down in the winter. So up went a gate across the trail. The grade became everyones back yard by squatters rights with boats, boat hoists, docks parked on and in some places fences across. Discourage ALL traffic.

What did the DNR do about this? Blind eye. They did a study about it, looking for an alternate route. Inclusove of running sled traffic through the Pigeon River State forest... including a bridge across the river... and down the side of I 75. Get serious. How much $$$ when an easment has already been purchased but hijacked by a handful of Mullet lake property owners?

NO ONE in the DNR would simply make a decision, step forward and open the trail. Or be willing to take blame if there were lawsuits. The Peter principal.

Granholm, took a look at this merry go round, and by her order, opened the trail. If there are to be lawsuits, then bring em on. I haven't heard of any nor do I think they would get that far if there were... How did the Mullet lake property owners deal with the train which ran 365?

My point is simple:The DNR simply cannot get past making desisions nor will they if there might be any threats or objections. Not much bang for the buck, is there. Just more bucks.

I haven't used this trail. Friends in Topinabee said it was really busy. Indian River is BUSY BUSY, much more so than when it was the end of the line. Be insterest to see how it all went once the sled season is over.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last summer, I stepped into the Indian River DNR office. Cant even remember exactly what for. Info on something or another. There used to always be 4-5 people in there, Professional atmosphere. Courteous.

This time there were two older men. One at a desk, on the phone, obviously in a heated discussion about something or another.

The other manning the front desk. Morose and sullen . There were at least 10 people lined up... each with some issue and bent on getting this guy told. I didn't hear him say but 4 words. Yes, No, OK and Next. What a job. The PR punching bag.

I left figuring to come back when the war was over. Never did.

These are the poor suckers taking the heat. Understaffed and frustrated. The guy at the counter looked like he would snap if someone really got on him. Can't say I would blame him if he did.

Whats the gals name? Andrea? DNR field officer from Indian River who has jurisdiction on BBI and is out there from time to time? I have heard about her. The attitude.

In fact I had a run in with her during deer season. I did nothing suspicious. Nothing happened. I was pulled over and interrogated, probably because I was wearing an orange hat. Anyway. I got the distinct feeling she was trying to make me push her button. My answers were Yes, No, OK. Is this what my hunting license $$ buys?

I think the DNR field officers and weary of getting told and taking crap, too. They have more power than a state trooper and not someone you want to PO with dumb questions or smart answers.

Susie: Not long ago we had one field officer per county (I thought?) Is it true we are now down to 1 per three counties. If so, what's the point? Show a presence periodically? Pocahing around here all the time. Call the DNR and they seldom respond. The only way to get a response is to call the sheriff department 5-6 times so they MAKE the DNR respond. Forget any follow up. I can't say I have even seen a DNR officer drive through my area in at least a decade.

So, who is managing our deer herd? Arresting violaters?

It is a sorry situation and I see little improvement on the horizon. I wish I could be more optimistic. Easier to point out the obvious.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, I couldn't agree more on use permits. If a resource is to be managed and maintained by a state agency, it shold be funded by those who use it. I just don't know how it would be fairly applied. Everyone who uses the rails to trails system should pay a fair share. even if it is a $5 hiking permit.

River access? Do the canoe liveries pay anything to the state? if they don't they sure should... or sell use permits to the canoers and fwd it to the state. But what about private user, those with their own canoes or own riverfront? We already pay BIG time to begin with.

And on this note, the liveries in Indian River which POUND the sturgeon all summer have been effectively banned from the Pigeon. Reason is simple; Wild protected river status and trees across the river cannot be cut/removed. Still a fair amount of Kayak Traffic on the Pigeon, but it is all private. an probably 5% of the Sturgeon traffic.

But where do you draw the line? shoul they put toll booths at every entrance of the PRSF and sell elk viewing permits?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Susie: Not long ago we had one field officer per county (I thought?) Is it true we are now down to 1 per three counties.


Sad but true.. It might even be 4 counties.. I met him a couple times.. He gave me his card and added his cell # because of the troubles we have on occassion.. Wexford, Kalkaska, Crawford.. The district offices look so empty.. Heck, I remember more than one officer per county.. Calling the police is the quickest way to a field officer from the DNR.

Quote:
BTW, I couldn't agree more on use permits. If a resource is to be managed and maintained by a state agency, it shold be funded by those who use it. I just don't know how it would be fairly applied


Here's my idea.. Permit sticker purchased with your drivers license, mandatory.. Small fee, hardly noticed.. Say 4 bucks. Heavily proscecuted for a while.. Covers all river and lakes access for a year.
Quote:
Everyone who uses the rails to trails
There is a horse trail that goes across the entire state.. I'm not sure if you need permits for it.. There should be.

Canoe liveries must apply for a permit.. Cost of, I'm not sure.. Charter boats do but should have to pay for each one instead of full coverage. They are the heaviest users.. What do ya think? I think having this would help keep the cost of hunt/fishing licence fees down.. Very Happy
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:36 am    Post subject: post Reply with quote

I enjoyed going back and reading an old post you suggested to read ..

I, too miss Rudy and his wife ..

I wrote him a note a few months back ... they were doing fine ... but as someone suggested, lets all e-mail him !!!! Maybe we can get the two to join in on the posts ... again ....

What do you all think about that ???
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