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Personal Defense - Firearms
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:20 am    Post subject: Satellite Reply with quote

Conis ...Thank you for all the info you shared ... It helped me to understand ....

I do have a Satellite dish ..
The Cable...TV .....and Phone are all in one .... High speed ...

I was going to call and see if I could get Vonage to save some money .. I know a few that has it and it works good for them .......

When we moved into this home just over a year ago the Satellite was here ..that is why we decided to us it ... We did not have it in our other home ...

We are now without a land line phone because of that But I am working on getting it back as I felt we needed it but taking to you ... guess it does not matter ...
Kevin .. The guns everyone should have and ready to use them !!
We have enough in this house but not ready to use them ...

And yes Squeaky we all need to take a class to know how to use guns or have a family member or Friend that really knows his stuff about guns to teach you ..
I have been around guns all my life ....
John And I were taking about going to the riffle range to practice .. that would be fun !!!
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, we too have thought about taking classes on how to use a gun safely. I back in the 70's use to go out in our back yard and target practice with our 22 rifle. But that was when the back of our property was by a field - no homes for quite a distance. Had a blast ( of course I was young and full of being a daredevil ) but have not shot one since. We have talked about having a gun in the home, if nothing but for protection. Maybe just a hand gun but one powerful enough to what it would be intended to do. Just hope it would not kick to bad..... Smile
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Bruce Lord
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was a kid my father drilled firearm safety into my head until it was nature to me. My cousin and I would take the hinges off the gun cabinet and look at and admire the weapons but we knew better than to do anything stupid. My father would not buy me a BB gun because he believed kids that had them did not understand the safety rules because whoever bought a young boy a BB gun did'nt either. I got my first rifle when I was 16. Seems old to some but probably still a little early. Just My Opinion. I think the best home defense weapon is a 12 guage pump. Probably a Remington. Oh yea my neighbors son shot the neighbor girl in the eye, she lost it. He was 12 she was 8. Just got the WEAPON for christmas.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a firm believer in the second amendment, Life NRA member and all of that. I also believe that when law abiding citizens are permitted to own (and/or) carry guns, the net result is a significant reduction in crime. This has been statistically proven over and over in many states which have passed concealed carry laws. And vice versa in areas which are highly restrictive (Washington DC, Chicago/cook county etc.) I am NOT going to get into all of this. It IS something I follow.

If you already, or are considering, keeping a firearm in your home or vehicle… I strongly urge you to know the law and take some training. Doing so may keep you out of a world of trouble, “IF”… There are numerous legal-liability laws that many are totally unaware of. Laws vary from state to state… Michigan is one of the tighter states as far as handgun ownership goes.

Take a CCW (concealed -carry pistol) class. This prepares you to take a test for a CCW permit. Whether or not you actually get a permit is moot. (only about 50% do). What you will learn is about 75% legal and 25% gun safety. Or when you can legally use a gun for self defense and when you are apt be in big trouble… and what will happen afterward, IF you ever do. I think this is why 50% do not follow through and obtain a CCW permit, once they learn the HUGE responsibility that comes with it. The knowledge is worth the cost of prep class, even if you keep a self defense gun in your home with no intent of carrying it. Unless you know how to use it and when you legally CAN use it, you might be further ahead and far safer with a ball bat. This isn’t something to be taken lightly .

Contact me if you want to know more re CCW.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, as long as I am on the subject.

When I was 12-13, I joined the village NRA sponsored "shooting league" which was a range in the basement of the local bowling alley. 5 round per set with heavy .22 target rifles, peep sites, 50'. The range master was a local deputy.

One safety infraction, however minor... and you were outta there. No further discussion or second chance. Period. In spite of this training, I wasn't trusted on my own until 16 with a .22.

I could go on and on an on about kids/friends injured and killed with guns. (BB guns incuded). All because of carelesness, ignorance and lack of respect. Or lack of instruction before they were simply turned loose.

Some of you may recall, I lost a very old-close friend "Denny" during the 2005 deer season. Self inflicted fatal gunshot. Here was a guy who was anything BUT careless or inexperianced. Just goes to show what can happen in a split second of inattention. Once a bullet is fired, you can't call it back.

And with that said, what can happen in a self defense situation or "gunfight" seldom goes well for anyone untrained and inexperianced.

Bruce is right on the 12 ga pump for self defense. I'll leave it there.
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bknoll
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bought my son a Daisy Red Ryder in 05. He was 8 years old. I find it to be the perfect opportunity to teach gun safety. Kind of like a real gun with training wheels.....if you're not gonna be safe and listen to dad, you're not going to use it...pretty simple. He has also shot the .22 on the island with me by his side. I think getting to plink around is one of the reasons he likes to go to the island with me.
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank You for the advice and information Conis. Yes, owning a gun is not something that should ever be taken lightly. We have talked many times of taking a CCW class. This would be a must way before a gun was ever brought into our home. Like you said, the laws to owning a gun and the proper use of a gun should be the priority before owning the gun.

We too had an incident in our family many years ago with a gun and this is never to be taken lightly. Guns can put an end to way to much in the blink of an eye.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did anyone see DATELINE NBC last night, (Saturday 3/17/07).

Summary if you didn't:

A case about a man who used a handgun in self defence, killing another who was attacking him (however unarmed). My impression was that this event was a bad situation which got out of control very quickly. And in fact, possibly escalated because the handgun owner fired a "warning shot". As a result, the gun owner was found guilty of second degree murder and doing 10 years w/out parole.

transcript:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15199221/

( A very good read. What can happen if you use a firearm in self defence. No witnesses. It didn't go well.)
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Bruce Lord
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please remember a 22 bullet travels 1 1/2 miles so when your plinking please be thinking.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan... I hear ya. Sometime it takes a "close call" to make an lasting impression... sounds like there was substantial luck involved in that situation. Otherwise another statistic.

Anyone who keeps a loaded gun inside is asking for the unexpected. By loaded, I mean a round chambered The cat knocks the gun over and ?... with kids around??? EGADS. I keep my guns under lock and key including my "home protection special". I can unlock it in 5 seconds. Why? Someone comes into your home ahead of you and gets to your gun before you do? That scenario wouldn't be a first.

Recall my friend Kevin (who broke his leg in the boat?) Deer season a couple years ago he climbs into my pickup with a fully loaded deer rifle for a short ride up the road... I asked him if it was unloaded... "Nope we are just going up the road... what If I see a deer?" My hair stood up on end!
It didn't go well... but the gun was unloaded, outside my pickup. end of discussion.

For one reason or another, I have had guns accidentally discharge more than once and it is ALWAYS a profound waker-upper. For this reason I quit using my dads 30-30 winchester where you had to let the hammer down slowly to make it "safe"... whoops it slipped?

Gun safety rule (the short list)
#1: Never bring a loaded gun indoors.
#2: Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
#3: Never point the gun at anything you do not intend to shoot.
#4: Know what is BEHIND your target.
#5: Never permit access to a gun by someone unauthorized.
#6: Store guns/ammunition seperately.
#7: A bullet, once fired, cannot be called back.
#8: memorize #1-7 until you can recite them in your sleep.

I'll save the gun accident stories for some other edition.
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, AMEN to your last paragraph. And in my last reply I stated that we had an incident in our family but I should say we had a horrible tragedy in our family involving a gun. Hatefullness, tempers, etc. do not mix when there is a gun close by. But I do not want to put a bad wrap on guns cause it is the person using the gun not the gun itself. I am a firm believer in owing a gun. I just do not own one.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce Lord wrote:
Please remember a 22 bullet travels 1 1/2 miles so when your plinking please be thinking.


Story I heard about some guy found during deer season, Had been sitting next to a tree. Found sumped over in doornail status.

In His neck was a 7mm mag bullet that they figured traveled FIVE miles.

Centerfire rifle can travel 3-5 miles or more without breaking a sweat. Guy I used to invite here deer hunting shot a squirrel out of a tree with his .308. The last/final time he was invited to hunt here...

Wonder where that bullet went?
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Bruce Lord
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point exactly
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bknoll
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or how about this Bruce....when I'm on the island, I'll tell you where I'm at so you can stay 1 1/2 miles away from me.
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Al'sOtherSister
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lived in Houston, had 2 guns. 38 caliber 6 shot revolver and a 38 snub. Had them up on the top shelf in the closet in locked bags. Had the bullets in the top dresser drawer.
Kids in the house and I would have it no other way. My husband eventually sold the guns, didn't see a reason to have em if the bullets were there and the guns were locked here.
I didn't like them in the house, now I wonder if I was being a bit cautious.

In Texas, they say to pull them on your property after you shoot them.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I didn't like them in the house, now I wonder if I was being a bit cautious.


I don't think so. I keep my guns individually locked, in a locked gun cabinet, in a locked room. (as in locked 3x) When My daughter was at home... Kids in and out of the house all the time. I didn't want to worry about it.

These days...if a kid under 18 gets ahold of his parents or anyones unsecured firearm and commits a crime or even gets caught with it... the owner of the gun is in WAY more trouble than the kid.

Thats about how it should be as far as I am concerned. Leaving unlocked unsecured guns laying around is grossly irresponsible, just for openers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have a CCW permit. They are not easy to get. This would legally entitle me to stuff a loaded .45 in my coat pocket and and walk around Walmart with it. Or keep it loaded in the car "just incase". I have never done either and have no desire or intention of doing so. I don't want the responsibility beyond the fact I have to need to pack heat.

The point is what?

I have it because it makes firearms purchases or exchanges much easier being "pre-cleared". It also allows me to transport a handgun in my car, any time of the year, for any reason, without having to have a hunting license on my possesion of some other "valid excuse".

To this... If I am stopped by a cop, they already KNOW I am a CCW permit holder when they run up my plate number. With the background screening required to obtain one (ZERO offenses of any kind, local, state or federal). That police officer KNOWS I am not trouble. Call it a "get out of jail, free" card.
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Al'sOtherSister
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some would wonder what I did after the guns were sold...
2 bats at the front and back door and a rather large german shepherd and lab/ pit bull mix in the house. Thought the guns were over kill, no pun intended.

I learned how to shoot and was a member of the women's sports shooting assoc. for 3 years. So if need be, I could wrestle a gun from my assailant and kill him with his own gun.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here in Bucolic Blanchard, we can blaze away all day, any day, and the neighbors could care less. They do it too. I was on " Racoon Duty" last night at midnight with the old 12 pump. 3-4 rounds. Neighbors knew exactly who/what/where/why. Big deal,Life in the hinterlands as usual.

I don't think it is quite like this on the island.

On BBI, G.W. "suggested" that shooting and target practice be limited to the unused gravel pit off Firetower road. Thats a great place to shoot. Lots of room, high gravel backstops (safe). Not a lot of people nearby to annoy. If you want to "plink" on the island, thats the place to go. There is a cable and stop sign across the entrance. Walk in 100' to the pit.

Of course, pick up when you are done.

BTW: Ball bats, framing hammers, screwdrivers and hatchets make A1 personal defense weapons. No permit required.
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Flyboy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting Subject.
Hi Conis, I'm looking forward to getting back up there. I met you a couple of times at Barbs over a tall cool one; I need to get back there real soon.
People commonly confuse personal defensive weapons with hunting weapons. In untrained hands both can be deadly, but personal defense weapons can be just the opposite of defensive to the untrained and uncommitted.
Too many people go through the hoops and pass all the required paperwork photos, prints etc for a CCW... and buy a pistol. It is then taken to the range and a box or four are shot through it at stationary targets while standing flat footed with out a drop of adrenalin. It can be fun, but this in no way will prepare you for a real defensive situation. Unfortunately too many people who own firearms stop training at a rudimentary level. Ok with golf clubs, weed whackers, or computers, not acceptable with firearms especially in a personal defense situation.
I applaud anyone wanting to become proficient in personal defensive weapons. If that person is you, please take the time to learn to use your firearm correctly. It is essential to learn the very few acceptable situations and assure that your own weapon will never be used against you (not unusual for the untrained).
Training is essential and until recent years not an easy proposition. For those interested in improving their skills and having a fun time while doing it you may want to research your local IDPA. This association provides a new, exciting, fun, and affordable experience, check it out, it could save your life, and you will have fun doing it.

http://www.idpa.com/
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Al'sOtherSister
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Training is essential and until recent years not an easy proposition. For those interested in improving their skills and having a fun time while doing it you may want to research your local IDPA. This association provides a new, exciting, fun, and affordable experience, check it out, it could save your life, and you will have fun doing it.


Great idea! Thanks for putting on the info!
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al'sOtherSister wrote:
Quote:
Training is essential and until recent years not an easy proposition. For those interested in improving their skills and having a fun time while doing it you may want to research your local IDPA. This association provides a new, exciting, fun, and affordable experience, check it out, it could save your life, and you will have fun doing it.


Great idea! Thanks for putting on the info!


DITTO and in total agreement. Anyone with a squeaky clean background can obtain a CCW permit and purchase a handgun. Firearms safety and range etiquette falls far short of being skilled, trained and proficient in defensive handgun combat.

I use the word combat. Thats what it is. Life or death and nothing short of this. Who ever makes the mistake loses forever. It isn't like a Bruce Willis movie.

A self defense training class will run $2500 and take a week. You will burn 10,000 rounds. IDPA is quite similar although it is a scored game held on a
"combat range" with popup sillouete "bad guy targets" and all of that. I have never tried it but would like to. I am sure I would suck at it.

Paintball games are another way to learn defensive strategy.

Last night, I was looking at a new thing the police are using which is non lethal and highly effective. These are modified paintball guns that shoot balls fill with red pepper (same stuff used in pepper spray). They hurt like hell when hit. 2-3 of this and an assailant is enveloped in a fog of pepper dust and down like a sack of dirt, gagging and eyes swelling shut.

No idea if these are legal in michigan? Likely not. I would have one anyway and take my chances. Non lethal. A lot fewer problems stopping an assailant with something like this, than shooting them to see where things go from there.

These are effective to 100'

http://www.pepperball.com/



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Flyboy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OUCH!
Looks interesting, I hope someone would not pull that out against someone armed with a sidearm, it could be real dicey, deadly force with less than deadly force. If someone levels a weapon against an armed assailant I am afraid that a tough call may leave the non-deadly force proponent leaking oil Shocked .
Hey Conis, I think I remember you were in the Mt.Pleasant area aren’t you? If you are interested I would be happy to introduce you to the IDPA that I shoot with in the area, it is a blast!
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:14 am    Post subject: guns Reply with quote

My sister lives in trapper creek alaska ...

She is 17 years younger then I so she is still raising her family of 3 ...

She has a Rifle up above her door so its ready and handy if she needs it for the mose and bear that come into the yard .... this is to protect her children outside playing ..

I had a friend years ago that lived in Anchorage alaska .. Her husband was gone alot of the time ... one night as she was reading in bed she heard someone come in ..she got up and lucked her door .... but she had sons across the hall from her ... the gun was in the closet all apart and the bulllets were in the drawer ... she said that none of this would help her .. so for years she slept with a loaded gun under her pillow or in her night stand ..
what good is a gun if its not loaded and ready to go .. yes we hear about kids getting the guns .. there is a way to put the guns in a safe place so the kids will not find them take them to school this is a big concern of mine ....
I have guns here in my home .. but they are not loaded so they are useless ... We need one of those huge steel locked cabnets so we can have the guns loaded and all we would have to do is unlock the door .. but then you may not have time then to save your life ... there is always a place to put a loaded gun in your home where the kids do not know ..where they are at ...
Right now .. I have a 12 year old Grandson that is learning how to shoot guns .. His mom was getting into it so she decided to get him into it .. He loves it ... He lives near Ft. Worth Tx.


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Flyboy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A loaded handgun is good to have if ever needed, but the problem is how to store one where you can quickly get it, but kids and undesirables can not. A good solution is a small vault designed for immediate access. These can be attached into a mounting plate so it can not be picked up and carried away by a thankful thief who appreciates your consideration by assembling your valuables in a convenient box for his transport. If you are talking long guns or pistols in a lock box, good idea, but bolt it down.
On the market are small vaults designed for a handgun and a few other select valuables featuring instant access with a finger tip combination sequence, or another one I recently saw, with an electronic scanner that identifies the operator by scanning the thumb print of the owner. These mount on a base that can be bolted into your vehicle, and then can be released and moved to a mounting plate into the home.
If you are going to have a loaded gun, find away that it can be stored in a responsible manner so you won't look like a moronic hick if you were being interviewed by a TV News crew, and then later on the witness stand. With firearms comes a HUGE responsibility. Gun owners must be cognoscente of the fact that none of us can afford to give the liberal anti-gun press more ammo to use against us.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of comments:

If I had kids around, I would NOT keep a loaded unsecured firearm in the house. Period. Not worth the risk. Maybe not even YOUR kids, but their curious friends. "Hey... I know where Billy's dad hides his pistol..." and then you have a statistic. There are tough laws against careless adults who , for any reason, allwo a monor to gain posession of a firearm whether the do something bad with it or not.

Handgun vaults are a solution. And BOLT THEM DOWN FROM THE INSIDE.

My solution: In my bedroom closet, I have 2 1/2" eyebolts with 3" lags into studs. 15" off the floor. Long guns go there with a cable/padlock through both eyebolt and and trigger guard. They aren't going anywhere unless someone has some serious bolt cutters. The key is hidden. If I am going away fro any length of time, all guns go into a safe. Ammo is stored in another locked closet, both are in a locked room.

I own a 357 taurus revolver. One feature being that the hammer can be locked down making the gun totally inoperative unless you have a key to unlock the hammer. If you have the key, it takes one second. I bought this revolver specifically because of this feature. It is stored, well hidden, loaded and locked. I don't want it used against me should anyone else get theri hands on it.

Should you ever use a gun in self defense... Plan on having the gun confiscated, going to jail until things are sorted out, posting a huge bond and paying up the *** in legal fees, self defence, legitimate or not.

For those thinking a gun is a good option, I suggest you take the time to review the case of the man, discussed on Dateline last saturday (links in post above) He claimed self defense. No witnesses. A dead man can't testify. IFFY. He is doing 10 years in prison, 2nd degree murder, because of IFFY. Since then, the arizona law has been changed so prosecuters have to prove it WASNT self defense. He plans on appealing his case but has spent every dime he has in legal costs.

All I have to say is "They" better be INSIDE your house, armed and the circumstances deemed "life threatening". Short of that, you better have witnesses. By law, use of a firearm is the last and final option (after you try to run away). Thats how it is in the real world.
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bknoll
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Should you ever use a gun in self defense... Plan on having the gun confiscated, going to jail until things are sorted out, posting a huge bond and paying up the *** in legal fees, self defence, legitimate or not.


That's a small price, in my opinion if I've been able to save my family from the dangers imposed by the intruder. I should note that I don't have any loaded guns in my house, although I do have several guns. Things are locked up tight. I do have ADT security though which we had installed after some nut job was pounding at our door at 3:00 a.m. about 7 months ago.
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