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Salt Brine on roads
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:21 pm    Post subject: Salt Brine on roads Reply with quote

Fifteen years ago, or so, Salt Brine brought up from oil wells I think, was spread on gravel roads all around Bay County. The practice was stopped when the public became aware of the toxic ingredients included with the salt and water. What is in the "Salt Brine" being spread in the middle of the straits of Mackinaw? How much are we paying for a mining or drilling nuisance by-product that may be hazardous to our lakes?

Just curious. Maybe someone has some "exact" answers other than the ones given by the company selling us their waste water.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Brine plus ? Reply with quote

I remember all too well. I worked in the oilfields then. It may be a little longer then 15 years ago. At that time Beckman and other operators were spreading brine that obviously had not been separated properly from the oil. There are separators that may or may not do a good job of doing just that. Such a stink was raised , literally, that they got in big trouble. They must have cleaned up their act, because I can't smell the oil in the brine spread here.
There still may be traces, but believe me, it is much improved from the smelly stuff they spread before.

Hint: Everything North of Mackinaw City is spelled "Mackinac".
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:38 am    Post subject: Salt Brine Reply with quote

Thanks, Mike, for the info.

Here is an excerpt from the entire State Disposal regulations:

c) The brines shall contain less than a 1,000-micrograms-per-liter
concentration of each of the following aromatic hydrocarbons:
(i) Benzene.
(ii) Ethylbenzene.
(iii) Toluene.
(iv) Xylene.

To me, this simply says that salt brine MAY contain these deadly chemicals if below the 1000 micrograms-per-liter concentrations. I would like to see the Oil Well Drilling people drink a glass or two of this stuff if it is safe. Perhaps the BBI dust is more deadly, I don't know. But too often these "Acceptable" levels of contaminants affect sensitive organisms such as pregnant women, young children, tiny organisms in the eco-system, etc. As for me, give me the dust.

PART 7. DISPOSAL OF OIL OR GAS FIELD WASTE, OR BOTH

R 324.705 Disposition of brine.
Rule 705. (1) A permittee of a well is responsible for the proper
disposal of all brines produced in association with oil or gas production, or
both, or brines accumulated in drilling mud pits or tanks and shall ensure that waste, as defined in section 61501(p) of the act, will not occur. A permittee may convey or transfer brines for other purposes if the brines are in compliance with the conditions provided in subrule (3) of this rule. A permittee shall be required to maintain records on the disposition of all brines pursuant to subrule (4) of this rule, and a permittee shall not have continuing liability relative to the transport or application of the brines after the brines are properly conveyed or transferred.
(2) Upon the effective date of these rules, a permittee of a well shall
not use brines produced in association with drilling for oil and gas, or
both, and accumulated in drilling mud pits for ice or dust control purposes.
(3) Twelve months after the effective date of these rules, a permittee shall dispose of all brines as provided in R 324.703 or shall use the brines in a manner approved by the supervisor; however, some brines may be conveyed or transferred and used for ice and dust control and road stabilization if all of the following conditions are satisfied:
(a) Brines shall not be used for ice and dust control and road
stabilization if the brines are obtained from wells containing more than 20 ppm hydrogen sulfide in the gas stream, unless it can be shown that there is less than a 500-ppm-hydrogen sulfide concentration present in the brine.
(b) The brines shall contain a 20,000-milligrams-per-liter or more
concentration of calcium.
(c) The brines shall contain less than a 1,000-micrograms-per-liter
concentration of each of the following aromatic hydrocarbons:
(i) Benzene.
(ii) Ethylbenzene.
(iii) Toluene.
(iv) Xylene.
(d) Only brines that have been approved by the supervisor or authorized representative of the supervisor may be exempt from the disposal requirements of R 324.703. For a permittee to obtain approval to exempt brine from the disposal requirements of R 324.703, all of the following conditions shall be satisfied:
(i) The brine shall be tested annually within 90 days of January 1 of
each year by the person seeking authorization to utilize the brine for other purposes. The brine shall be tested using any of the following procedures:
(A) Method 200.7 ICP-AES, entitled "Method for Trace Element Analysis of Water and Wastes, Methods for Chemical Analysis of Water and Wastes," March 1983 edition.
(B) Method 6010A, entitled "Inductively Coupled Plasma, Test Methods for Evaluating Solid Waste, Physical/Chemical Methods," 1984 edition 3.
(C) Method 602, entitled "Purgeable Aromatics, Guidelines Establishing Test Procedures for the Analysis of Pollutants," 40 C.F.R. part 136, appendix A, revised July 1990.
(D) Method 8020A, "Aromatic Volatile Organics by Gas Chromatography, Test Methods for Evaluating Solid Waste, Physical/Chemical Methods," 1984 edition 3.
(E) Method 8240A, entitled "Volatile Organic Compounds by Gas Chromatography/Mass Spectrometry: Packed Column Technique,Test Methods for Evaluating Solid Waste, Physical/Chemical Methods," 1984 edition 3.
(F) Method 8260A, entitled "Volatile Organic Compounds by Gas Chromatography/Mass Spectrometry: Capillary Column Technique," 1984 edition 3.
(G) Method 325.3, entitled "Chloride (Colorimetric, Automated
Ferricyanide), Guidelines Establishing Test Procedures for the Analysis of Pollutants,"40 C.F.R. part 136, appendix A, revised July 1990.
(H) Method 4500-CLE, entitled "Chloride, Methods for the Determination of Organic Compounds in Drinking Water" and supplement I, December 1988 and July 1990 editions. The testing methods are adopted by reference in these rules and copies are available for inspection at the Lansing office of the geological survey division of the department of environmental quality.Copies may be obtained without charge from the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, Geological Survey Division, P.O. Box 30256, Lansing, Michigan 48909, or from the United States Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Research and Development, 26 West Martin Luther King Boulevard,
Cincinnati, Ohio 45268.
(ii) The sample of brine used for analysis shall be obtained from the
point of loading of the storage tank where the brine is first separated from the production stream.
(iii) A chemical analysis of each brine source showing the concentrations of all of the following shall be submitted to the supervisor or authorized representative of the supervisor within 30 days of the completion of the analysis:
(A) Chloride.
(B) Hydrogen sulfide.
(C) Calcium.
(D) Benzene.
(E) Ethylbenzene.
(F) Toluene.
(G) Xylene.
(iv) The chemical analysis shall include all of the following information:
(A) The well name.
(B) Permit number.
(C) Permittee.
(D) Location of the individual well.
(E) If the brine is obtained from a tank battery or central production
facility, the name, number, permittee, and location of the tank battery or central production facility.
(4) A permittee of a well shall maintain records for 2 years on the
disposition of all brines produced in association with oil or gas production,
or both. The records shall indicate dates, volumes, recipient, transporter, destination, and proof of delivery. If the person authorized to utilize the brine for other purposes receives the brine at an unattended loading site, then the person shall provide the permittee with a signed record describing the date, volume, time, destination, and proof of delivery. A permittee of a well shall make the records available for inspection by the supervisor or authorized representative of the supervisor at all times. A permittee of a well shall protect the records from damage or destruction due to preventable cause.
(5) A permittee of a well shall ensure that brine which is in compliance
with the conditions listed in subrule (3) of this rule is also in compliance
with all applicable state and federal laws and regulations.

History: 1996 MR 9, Eff. Sep. 19, 1996.

n "Disposal" regulations.
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me2
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#Sleep #Sleep #Sleep
The levels must be okay, we are all pretty normal. Besides the third arm and hand help me type faster.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: dust Reply with quote

I would take the dust only ..never mind putting something on the road to control the dust .. just leave it the way it is .. the dust is part of the island
when I lived there I hated the oil that they put on the road ...We could not even walk on the road to and from the pines dock .... it was alful ...
one of 2 evils the dust or oil or what ever they put on it now ..I would take the dust any time ..
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the old days people use to get the good old garden hoses out and water down in front of their homes, cottages, property, where ever. I think I would rather tolerate the dust too. You can wash off the dust! Chemicals not so easy to wash away.
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mikewhite
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:38 am    Post subject: In the good old days on BBI Reply with quote

In the good old days on BBI, everyone collected their used motor oil, and spread it in front of their homes. Environmentally, things have improved relative to that method.

On the other hand, the Twp. and the County would join forces, and spread "Dowflake", which is a form of calcium cloride, on the roads. They would hire the local kids to dump the bags of Dowflake into the spreader pulled behind the county truck. This stuff may have been more refined then the brine now used. I remember the big problem for the kids was the fact that the stuff would make the toes of your shoes curl up and ruin them.

Either method was tough on anyone who had to walk in the road. I suppose that the runoff into the great lakes for Dowflake or brine or oil is bad.

My wife will kill me for saying this. Paving would solve the dust problem. On the other hand, paving would increase vehicle speeds.
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the "Dowflake" was curling up the ends of their shoes, then I wonder what else it was doing? Rolling Eyes
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Cindy Childs
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You eat a peck of dirt before you die the old saying goes, so I'd rather have mine chemical free. The road dust isn't as bad as the stuff that gets put on them...it makes me not breath. Now, for some that might be ok, but I'd rather think that breathing isn't an option, so when the road Chloride is spread on the roads I can't travel them...because it literally makes me unable to breathe. I am sensitive to one of the chemical that is considered "acceptable". Go figure.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:26 am    Post subject: dust Reply with quote

I am with you on that subject ..

I avoid the area in the store that they sell that nasty stuff they use to spray bugs .. kill weeds and all that horrible stuff ..
It makes me sick...
I remember when my grandpa would put stuff in his spray can and spray away ... its out lawed now ...
I believe all of that has broken down our imm systems and it has caused us problems forever ....
remember the yellow things that people would hang in their homes ???
my mom never used it but my in laws did and my mom in laws mother came to visit and her nose was running and she kept saying "i know its that thing right up there "and i know she was right ..

keep the dust !! just forget about it and enjoy the island in its natural state ......
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islandnana
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry if the solution they put on the roads bothers anyone but for those of you that don't live here you can't imagine what a problem the dust causes. There were times we were run off the road as someone was over part way on our side of the road and it was so dusty they didn't see us until it was almost too late. I, for one, have trouble breathing when there's so much dust on the roads so I just keep my windows closed and turn the air condtioner on when I go down the roads. I don't think there will ever be a complete solution to the problem short of paving the roads which we certainly don't want, but the more and more people that come to the island causes more road traffic and more dust. ---- One problem I have is in the miracle mile people are still watering the roads even though that solution was put in front of their houses. They are so many potholes there now it's very hard on a vehicle. I guess there's a no win situation no matter what we do short of moving off the island.
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say keep the dust too but it sure does play havic on your car, air filter, etc. Good advice is, if you are coming to the Island, bring a new filter with you and change it when you get off the ferry in Cheboygan.... Your car will run better for sure.... In fact, stop at the car wash and give it a good washing.... Smile
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: dust Reply with quote

islandnana, people do tend to creep over a bit to the wrong side of the road and along with the dust its hard to see but if everyone would try harder to stay on their own side of the road .there would not be such a big problem ... I know I know its hard to do ....

I know all about that problem .. I lived there and had a neat old VW bug ..
I loved it ...
My brother Lonnie used to tease me and tell me that I would slide around those corners with the dust flying behind .me.. 3 kids and a cute little dog with me tearing the island up ... I really hope it WASEN'T all that bad ..

I did have fun with that VW bug ...
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I feel the dust is a greater health and safety hazard than the brine. It literally gags me. Bad enough at times I wont venture out on the main road to walk or ride a wheeler. Car goes by and it takes 10 minutes for the air to clear. Car windows up and the AC on. With more and more people on the island each summer, the dust problem will increase proportionately to road use.

I live on a dirt road in Mecosta county. They brine the roads every couple of weeks and have been since I moved here. Works for me. I do know the environmental issues have been brought up and that the brine solution has to be filtered and treated. They can't use it straight from the oil well like they did not so many years ago. Salt is a naturally occuring mineral which dissolves and dissipates. I don't see any damage to roadside vegetation or dead minnows in the creek after the brine truck comes through.

I don't know what the stuff was they tried last summer. Some sort of wood product by product? Expensive, I heard. The problem with that stuff is the cost. To make it work and actually pack the road surface could take several applications so it works down and in, then one or two maintainance applications each summer. Be cheaper than paving which I am not in favor of.

No simple solution. Maybe put a coin carwash on the island? (which I am sure isn't an original idea) Right next to which would be "Dust Mask Depot" selling everything from simple dust masks to hazmat suits with respirators and O2 tanks... Which is about what one needs now if you want to ride a bike around on the island.

(I just returned from the island.) Last week, I took off a flannel shirt I was wearing while walking. Beat it on a tree and a gagging cloud of dust came out of it. Wonder how much I breathed in? I won't go into what happens when you blow your nose. I honestly don't know how those with cottages close to the main road can cope with the dust.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I to would like to keep the dust down as much as possible. And it is dangerest without the solution put on the road. You just can't see the second and third cars that you are meeting through that dust. And Connie this is a lot worse now then when you lived here, there is a lot more cars on the road and I mean a lot more. And a lot of the road was oiled back then. And the summers where not so dry.
(Global Warming) I don't know for sure if that is what it is but the heat and no rain does a lot for the kind of dust that we are getting. There has allways been a dust problem but it seems to be a lot more now. I think the township is doing everything they can to keep it to a minimun.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought occured to me

The dust problem seems much worse on the east end and pines than on the west end where the road is more shaded.

With the road so close to the water along much of the east end, and the water level being as low as it is... the water table of BBI has dropped just as much making the road much dryer along the lake?

This has been an incredibly dry summer. Maybe two inches of rain total since June?

Last week when they had that huge forest fire in Luce County (UP) and the smoke cloud came over BBI. WOW! I stepped out the door and saw the smoke hanging in the trees... ran back to the orchard and same thing. I don't know if terrified would be the right word. I thought there was a forest fire on the island. Bone dry and stiff wind blowing. Raced up to the tavern to find out what was going on... WHEW!

Went to to the north side and looked. Could see the smoke cloud coming across. A very erie sunset.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:14 pm    Post subject: dust Reply with quote

Welcome back, Kevin and Conis !!!!!!

You have been missed ..


I am sure as you said Kevin the dust is worse now then when I lived there ...

I hope you guys can find a safe and not too much money to keep the dust down ..

AS far as paving the roads .. that has been talked about for years .. but I do not see that happening, in my life time anyway ...
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Al'sOtherSister
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So nice to see you guys again on here..
Thanks for the email Kevin...
Nice to see you in person Conis, but we must talk more, next time we meet!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:32 am    Post subject: METTING Reply with quote

Lisa .. Lucky you ..you got to met him .. thats what I want some day !!

#Big smile
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:20 am    Post subject: Dust Reply with quote

Brine for driver safety seems to be the best reason for its application. But I question that simply because the speed limit is 25 mph. If drivers actually drove that speed there would be no danger in the dust at all.

When I'm getting "dusted" by a vehicle in front of me I slow down, drop back, and eat my dust like a man. I know I will return the favor sooner or later...it's island reality. Running into a car coming from the opposite direction simply means someone is driving on the wrong side of the road and that is not a dust problem, but rather a driver mistake. Dust or no dust, cars ahead of us or behind us must be anticipated...anywhere in the country.

If we want to be just like every other overrun northern vacation spot, let's pave it. They will come...in droves...and the wild life, the quality of life, and the natural beauty will all suffer. I'm with Lani on this one Mike.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:36 am    Post subject: Paving Reply with quote

I was just stating a fact. It is the solution to the dust problem. It has been implied that I think that I would like the roads paved. That is not the case. My wife would be mad at me for even stating the word "paving" even though it is the obvious solution.

The dust separates the wheat from the chaf, and I am not talking about grain. So I am for dust, bugs and snakes.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Dust Reply with quote

I know you are happy with the roads just the way they are, Mike. I just wanted to give you some...shmud...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am with John Elmer Engel on this one .. Exclamation

And Mike said he was for dust, bugs, and snakes
I support you both .........
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kinda like no bugs no snakes and no dust. I have seen 11 rattle snakes this year and the most I've seen my whole life over on the isl. I have been relocating them down to the east end where they belong.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Truthfully, I can tolerate the dust, bugs..... But not the snakes. :nope: Island or no Island....
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