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Smoking in public establishments ban.
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In favor of a ban on smoking in public establishments?
Yes
63%
 63%  [ 21 ]
No
33%
 33%  [ 11 ]
Indifferent
3%
 3%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 33

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Kacy_Martin
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Smoking in public establishments ban. Reply with quote

Down here in Ohio there has been a smoking ban in public establishments (bars, restaurants, stadiums, etc...) for a couple of years now (it actually started in Toledo, Columbus, and Cleveland first the went statewide). The state has just started issuing fines for establishments who have been violating this law (up until now places have been receiving warnings), and this has become a hot-topic in Ohio.

After recently traveling I went to a restaurant outside of Ohio where people still smoked inside and was able to notice quite a difference in my experience. I'm not sure if Michigan is in the process of instituting a similar ban (or if one already exists), but how does everyone here feel about a smoking ban, good idea, bad idea?
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a smoker, never have been and never will be.

That being said:

Most public establishments have already taken it upon themselves to prohibit smoking within their buildings and, often, on their premises. The only places that haven't already prohibited smoking are places like bars, taverns and certain restaurants, where the guests are predominantly adults who can make their own choice about where to go. Even those remaining establishments usually have both smoking and non-smoking areas (although I realize that's not always an effective solution). Bottom line, of course, is that you don't have to go into those places if the smoke really bothers you.

I'm against local, state or Federal authorities implementing bans like these - let the business owner make up her/his own mind about whether it is appropriate to offer smoking areas for customers. As a non-smoker, I can do without the smoke, but I can make my own choice about where to go if it really bothers me. The authorities should have better things to do than to go around ticketing individuals/establishments for something like this.
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GonnaGetaway
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The authorities should have better things to do than to go around ticketing individuals/establishments for something like this.


It's all about generating revenue for the local government/courts.

The one that makes me boil is the "government" dictating what type of bathtub faucet/handle must be installed on new constructions. (can't have hot and cold handles, have to have that stupid center one like hotels) #Mad C'mon.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many Bars, establishments, office buildings, etc. have stopped smoking in or near their buildings in our area. Hospitals also. Can not even smoke in their cars near the hospitals. (Good Decision) I was once a smoker and I never realized then as to the smell, etc. that goes with it. Hair, clothes, etc. I too say that it should be up to the establishment as to what they want, but I also believe that we have the right to not go where smoking is allowed. And if you so choose to go, then go..... But we all know that it would be wise and more healthy to not smoke. Health problems from smoking is so deadly and so costly..... : (

Last edited by Squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kacy_Martin
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention, I'm not sure if it was a part of the smoking ban, but public places now (schools, governmental buildings, hospitals etc) are not allowed to have designated smoking areas within 25 feet of any entrances. They are not even allowed to have ash trays within 25 feet of the entrance. I'm not sure if this applies to stores and restaurants though.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject: smoke Reply with quote

I agree with Dan all the way !!

I too am a non-smoker but hey its getting way out of hand ... the control of the smokers ... they should have their rights . but its fading fast ..

i remember when the smokers could go anywhere .. and when i was at work they would blow it right in my face ..so we the non-smoker had to have some relief .. but they are going too far with it !! for sure !!
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boisblancgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that the establishment owner should have their own choice as to whether or not to allow smoking, and that the patrons have their own choice as to whether or not to frequent that establishment.

It's funny though, sometimes people have private home parties here and only allow smoking out on their porches. So............all the smokers go out there to smoke and half way through the party ALL the guests are out on the porch. I guess it just goes to show that the smokers are more fun to be around.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes... it is getting out of hand...

Regretfully, I am a smoker... but that isn't the point. The point is the government exponentially reducing our freedoms and choices. This is somewhat equal to the motorcycle helmet law. It is my head, not the governments.

If you are a non smoker, I applaud you. You have the right to choose to enter a pub which permits smoking or not. Many tavern owners believe this mandate will reduce their business and they may be right.

In a restaurant, I can see it whether they have smoking/ non smoking areas or not. There are kids around. I don't smoke in a restaurant out of courtesy to those that don't. Likewise, even though I smoke, I wouldn't appreciate some guy next to me puffing on an RG Dunn while I am trying to enjoy a meal. Just common courtesy.

I don't know how to address the subject of children being permitted in taverns where smoking is permitted. I suppose this would be the decision of the parents. Good, bad or in between?

I buy my tobacco at a local tobacco shop. Enter the shop and the place reeks. Everyone in there smoking a cigar, a pipe or whatever. I think it safe to say the store is frequented 99.9% by smokers but even at that it is a tad overwhelming. I am just wondering, since this is a "public place of business" if the smoking ban would legally apply here as well? What differentiates the tobacco shop from say Walmart? Does the store owner have the option of allowing smoking in his place of business? Or is it illegal already and the owner chooses not to comply?
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iowa just put the smoking ban in place recently - Smokers in a couple of the local pubs I get forced into once in a while Rolling Eyes were mad as hell for a while - the tavern owners set up a large "ash tray" and a place to sit outside and now you don't hear much about it anymore - in fact it seems like when one goes out to smoke, the others join in at the same time. I have heard most to the smokers say it is a good idea. It is nice to go home and not smell like an ash tray after have a couple of drinks.
But on the other hand, I don't like to be told what to do either!
My son works for the D.O.T. and the only way he can smoke on the premises is he has to be in his vehicle with the windows rolled up - he told me that will make you stop smoking quicker than anything he has tried!!
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is nice to go home and not smell like an ash tray after have a couple of drinks.


Thats' the upside.

It wasn't that long ago that smoking was permitted on airplanes. Thats seems weird, even to me!
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently, after my mother gave birth to me, the hospital nurse offered her a cigarette. Shocked I can only assume she accepted it.

See, and I turned out fine. #Silly

Not all that long ago, everybody smoked. I grew up around smokers and it doesn't bother me, even though I'm a lifelong non-smoker. I don't like smoke and cigarette/cigar/etc. odor - neither do most smokers - but banning ALL public smoking is akin to helmet laws (like Conis said) and seat belt laws.

Let people make their own choices. Taking your child to a pub? Probably a bad choice under any circumstances. And if you do, be ready for the consequences, i.e., people smoking in the vicinity. There are other places to go.

This reminds me of the many Subdivision Association debates I've had with people downstate. I think subdivision associations are evil - especially those that have sprung up more recently, and are filled with lifelong city-dwellers who are suddenly in "the country" for the first time. Talk about stripping freedoms away... These associations force local farmers to get rid of livestock because of the odors they produce. They won't allow people to park pickup trucks or "recreational vehicles" (motorcycles, boats, campers) outdoors. They prevent people from deviating from their artificial "ideal" by dictating the kinds of things they can and cannot have in their own yards, the color their homes have to be, etc. Yet people move into these cookie-cutter homes by the thousand and are happy to be told how to behave and how to live. They gladly pay association fees for the privilege of having their own freedom limited (God forbid somebody paints their house blue or parks a camper in the driveway!). It scares the hell out of me that these associations have proliferated as they have. But, here they are. And you'd BETTER NOT be caught smoking around there!!
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in the "old days", us "citizens" were granted the constitutional right to be "our own fools". This required we make a few decisions in life and lets hope they are good ones.

Don't wear a sealt belt? Take your chances.
Don't wear a motorcycle helmet? Take your chances.
Use Tobacco products? Take your chances.

Will the sports of parachuting or downhill skiing be next on this list of risky stuff?

Here's what its about: It is about OSHA justifying their existance in their quest to insure we all live in a risk free world. It is about lobbiests, perhaps for the mega insurance companies, insisting to politicians that people be protected from themselves to reduce payouts.

Let's say, with known risks associated with tobacco and smoke, a non smoking bar maid in employed is a tavern which permits smoking. Bring OSHA to the rescue! Or in the old days, decide to find employment elsewhere than a smoke filled saloon?

Public places? OK, sort of. Non smokers out number smokers by a huge majority. I appreciate that and all the negative side effects of a smoke filled environment.

But what about private establishments ie Elks club, eagles lodge etc? where they aren't open to the public per se, you must be a member. Then can the members vote on smoking/non smoking? What about employees in those places? Bingo halls? You want to see some smoke?

If these private clubs are excluded from this ban, then what's to prevent tavern owners form changing their status from public to private and issue membership cards, required to get in?

Years ago, I was in what you would call a "bar" in West Virginia. In that state at that time, there were no public bars or taverns as we know them in Michigan. Private-members only. Go in with a member or be a member and it cost $1.00.

In addition to drinking and smoking, there was gambling. Totally illegal but tolerated. My introduction to a "tip jar" which was essentially a bar run lottery for $$$. My god! Do that in michigan and a tavern would be shut down in 45 seconds. But tolerated there by the inspectors. The trade off was that the club owners had better NOT get caught with liquor from adjacent states which was considerably less expensive than through WVLC.

This is getting off topic but I could see private clubs spring up if they are excluded from the no smoking ban. And with this, I could see law enforcement prohibited from entering without a search warrant. Good or not good?

There is always a flip side to everything.
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Kacy_Martin
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that a couple of the places which were recently fined in Ohio were an American Legion and a place called the Irish Club, similar to a private membership only lodge.

After reading I found a link to the Ohio Department of Health which state the exemptions to the law. Basically it looks like hotels are exempt, and indoor smoking rooms are allowed if they are completely sealed off from the common area.

It also appears that retail tobacco stores are exempt from the law as well.

I'm a non smoker, however I do go to the bars with many smokers. Pretty much all of the bars around Ohio now have outside patio/deck areas which are available to smokers. The people I am with don't typically mind having to go outside, and in the summertime I prefer to sit outside anyhow.
However, now when I travel out of state I do notice a difference when I walk into a place that allows smoking. I've gotten used to not being around it as much that it actually is pretty overwhelming when you are suddenly in a smoke filled room again.
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many hotels-motels that have non smoking rooms. From our experience in the upper part of michigan (the out skirts of Traverse City) these rooms might as well be for the smokers. They are horrible, smelly and over run with cigarette smell. The last one we stayed at was so bad that we went out and purchased a room deodorizer. And we had called ahead of time and we were told these were non smoking rooms. Yea, right..... So we made the reservations. If it would not have been on the weekend and in the summer we surely would have moved on to another. We have stayed at one in Cheboygan (a preivate owned little place) that was absolutely wonderful. So there are some that are still honest and clean....
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The amazing thing is that England and France have relatively recently outlawed smoking in public places. I believe you cannot smoke in pubs in England or restaurants in France. Perhaps there are exceptions. Still, as much as the English and French like to smoke, it is quite a change. And while I am not a smoker, it just doesn't seem like an English pub or a French cafe without smoking.

But having said that, I still support bans in most public places in the US. The biggest reason is the long term health impact: Hopefully it will increasingly make a difference in the number of kids who take up smoking. I assume most of us agree that smoking cigarettes is for most people an expensive and unhealthy practice. For most over 40, who started smoking when all the health impact info was not yet in (though clearly some of it was), smoking was something that was very much part of the culture and, for many reasons, is tough to stop. In light of the health care costs associated with smoking, I think more and more we will see employers and insurance companies no longer employing or insuring smokers.

The second reason is a personal one: When smoking is optional, there are always some (and where I work a substantial number) who just don't seem to abide by the rules. Where I work, there is a sign outside the door that says smokers should smoke 25 feet from the door. And yet everyday there are a substantial number who absolutely ignore it. Now maybe that alone does not justify, e.g., a ban from the workplace and outdoor areas completely, but when considered in light of the long term efforts to drastically reduce smoking in the next generation, I think it is a good idea.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was force fed those nasty things the first 18 years of my life and dont have a problem not smelling them in public places. Its not about you.. its about the 3 kids sitting next to you. Go outside and puff down. Have 2.
We just dont care to have one with you.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Smoke Reply with quote

Hi to the strangers that have not been on for awhile .. Good to see you !!

I agree with Dan again .. about Those controling people !! We were about forced into one but got out in time !! Ha Ha
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:30 pm    Post subject: smoke Reply with quote

I agree with Clover .. its so true !! We non-smokers get up and walk right out the door with the smokers in the lead .. LOL LOL !!


This discussion brings a memory back of when my brother lived with us in Alaska ...

At the time we had a Puffin sticker on the door that said "no puffin".. those that Don't know what a puffin is, its a cute little black, white and orange animal that live in the artic ...
Well my brother was a smoker at the time and the sticker reminded him that no puffin was allowed .. well, he spent plenty of time out there on that deck for sure .. but when the fall chill started you could tell he was not enjoying it one bit .. he was all humped over trying to stay warm .. I watched him till I could not handle seeing him out there about freezing to dealth any more !! So I told him he could smoke in his room upstairs ..

When the Thanksgiving Holiday came about I invited a few old friends of ours from our younger years in alaska .to come out and join us for a big meal of turkey and all the stuffing and we could talk about our fun school days in alaska ...Well guess what ? We all ended up in his room on the bed talking .. I looked around at everyone then started laughing .. it really ticked me !!

When my daughter was going to high school in Alaska I could not believe the school had fixed an smoking area for the kids !! really !! I was against that for sure !! after all it was a high school !!

Those years was the begaining of the end for the smokers !! They all started out making a place just for them .. How special ! And now they run them out the door and that is not good enough so they make more rules that you have to stay in your car with the windows up ?? Come on now .. That is more freedom lost .. this is not a perfect world and that will not change so lets be fair here !!

I suppport the smokers !!

Now about the subdivision assciations .. I agree with Dan all on that one too .. and I have to admit that when I went to the island this summer and I seen the sign that welcomed us to the island THEN it said it was a zoned commutity ..i had a terrible feeling come over me !! Zoned yes !! of course .. more people are going to the island so more rules are made .. hey wait a minute . what did I just say ??? Oh my gosh !!..i remember how the rules were changing way back before MORE people were going to the island!! . and of course we fought it !! My Dad wrote a poem about it ..i posted it here a some time back .. yes it really hit hard ..
I understand too that there has to be some rules to live by .. but its been taken too far at times ..

We all have to remember that we do not want just the rich to beable to come and enjoy the island and run us out ..I know when I write that tonight I am thinking, would that REALLY happen ?? well it could !!

Thats all for tonight folks !!

I enjoy reading all your thoughts and your ideas !

See ya !!
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:49 am    Post subject: Smokers Reply with quote

I'm a non smoker.

I have friends that do smoke. I sit in their cabins while they smoke and they are wellcome to smoke in my cabin. Am I affected? I guess so. Friends trump smoking ban on my property.

And that is the issue for public places. When my actions affect others, then it seems fair that a ban is necessary. It is just like private land ownership. If my land is mistreated and that pollution bleeds onto my neighbors, it is no longer an issue of "It is my land and I can do whaterver I want on it." My actions are now detrimental to my neighbor. Like Conis said, "Common Courtesy" should avoid these issues but common courtesy is not that common.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still say that it should be the establishment's choice and the choice of the people whether or not to enter. Like "enter at your own risk". What's wrong with that?

It's no different that a topless joint. You have your choice whether or not to enter. Bungie jumping is your choice, sky diving is your choice. The smokers choose to smoke and if you don't want to smell or taste their smoke, then DON'T enter! The smokers can't smoke in a non-smokers domain and I respect that, but then don't force the issue of punishing the smokers just so the non-smokers can come into their domain.

They will NEVER EVER convince me that second hand smoke is worse for a person than actually smoking. If that were the case, then me and all of my siblings should have been dead years ago, or have some sort of chronic lung or breathing problem. Nope, they'll never convince me of that.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a little catch up reading on this yesterday just to keep my facts straight. Looks like a done deal. I had a hard time determining the status of this since many of the pages were older and things were pending.

Looks like Indian Casinos are excluded on the basis of jurisdiction.

There are a lot of arguements pro and con, for sure. Read them all.

The strongest arguement against (to me) is "where is the edge" How far do we want to allow government to go with more laws and less freedoms? For democracy to work, citizens have to make choices. Or should we sit back and allow the government to make our choices for us? I think this is really the controversial crux of it all.

Health issues not withstanding: The non smokers may have a perceived victory, but also taken a loss at the same time.

This sort of reminds me of a Three Stooges Classic called Niagra Falls where the words "Niagra Falls" always trigger Moe into a rage. "Step by step, inch by inch... Slowly I turned... and then I...." Some of you may remember this epic?

Well... when we turn and open our eyes, everything will be regulated or illegal. We will need a permit to exist. Whoops they have the covered already. National ID card.

Quote:
The smokers can't smoke in a non-smokers domain and I respect that, but then don't force the issue of punishing the smokers just so the non-smokers can come into their domain.
= BINGO!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: smoers Reply with quote

"They will NEVER EVER convince me that second hand smoke is worse for a person than actually smoking"

I'm not sure, but I don't think anyone believes 2nd hand smoke is "worse" than 1st hand smoke. It is unhealthy to a much lesser degree but still unhealthy.

Let's say there are NO laws in any public establishments against smoking. IF I was against breathing 2nd hand smoke, I would have to choose to not enter ALL Public Establlishments because there would be smokers frequenting them for sure. Is that right?

When my actions, in a public domain, hinder others, isn't it my responsibility to end the offensive actions? Unfortunately, in this country the reply is "If you do not like it, don't come in." That's just plain unfriendly.

In a bar where people sit for hours, let'em smoke. In a restaurant where less time is spent and for the comfort of ALL diners, I believe that the smoke should be left out of the dining experience.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is one - lets make half of the island smoke free, while the smokers can fill up the other half with their smoke - cigarette smoke.... Now the big question will be, who gets what half???? Rolling Eyes Each have their own eatery, bar, store, whatever. The island is such a natural clean place, so wouldn't it nice to keep it that way? Now that would be something.... Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:57 pm    Post subject: Smoking Reply with quote

My last comment addresses the smokers at the Ferry Dock. I could care less about who smokes. But I think it is not difficult for smokers to put their butts in the long neck cigarette ash tray placed at the dock. It just irks the s--- out of me to see a butt flicked into the Lake Huron Waters! It is LITTERING , period! And it demonstrates a lack of respect for the natural beauty of our clean waters and the people who frequent the island. Put the butt in the ash tray for the islands' sake.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there could be smoking bars/restaurants and non-smoking bar/restaurants and you can choose whatever one you want to go into.

And John you say: "In a restaurant where less time is spent and for the comfort of ALL diners, I believe that the smoke should be left out of the dining experience." As a non smoker you don't understand just how uncomfortable it is for a smoker to sit in a restaurant for 2 hours visiting and eating and even drinking and not be able to have even 1 cigarette. No one cares how uncomfortable or inconvenient it is for a smoker, all that seems to matter is that we ALL make it confortable and convenient for the non smoker.

It has been broadcast all over the news more than once about how second hand smoke is much worse for a person than actually smoking, and they'll never convince me of that.

If smoking is such a problem for this country, and the government is implementing all these rules against it, and taxing the tar out of cigarettes, then I don't understand why they just don't take cigarettes, cigars, etc. right off the market. But oh no!!! they need all that tax money to pay the politicians that make up these unfair laws and who knows what else they spend it on.
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