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Climate Change?
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mikewhite
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: IPCC Reply with quote

An outfit called the IPCC are the ones to blame for this global warming scare. They got the Nobel Peace prize for doing that. They take scholarly papers, that have been peer reviewed, from all over the world and use that information to make a report. The IPCC is divided into 4 working groups that combine all their work into an assessment report. The last big assessment report was in 2007. It was the 4th one they have done.

Working group I makes "The Physical Science Basis" report part of the assessment report. The Physical Science Paper they wrote was summarized for policymakers. So I would assume this is what possibly is read by the people who make policy. I don't even think they would read that, but leave it up to their assistants to figure it out then give them an idea of what it says.

Anyway, here is the working group 1 report to the policymakers based on thousands of respected scientists working all around the globe. TAR means Third Assessment Report

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-spm.pdf
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need to keep our rights as a Christian Nation. and keep God in it.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose that this is really de-railing the topic here, but I cannot let Steve's comments go as stated. He doesn't give the ACLU credit where it is due!
Also to the Credit of the ACLU:

Removal of the Ten Commandments from all public buildings and properties. Oh...almost forgot...none of those "Christmas" trees allowed either...even if you don't call them "Christmas" trees.

Absence of morning prayer in school and at athletic events.

Eliminating corporal punishment as a legal option for school teachers.
(God help us if one of the little bastards get spanked...he may grow up to be a responsible citizen and to respect authority)
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Uncle Steve!
I will! a few times I think,......... lol
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:21 am    Post subject: I will Reply with quote

thanks for your input Steve .... Squeaky and Jimbob ..

I will be sure to get that card sent out !! and send the letter and the added info from Squeaky and jimbob to everyone I know ..!!

We must do our part to keep our right to keep a christian state ..
and as squeaky said keep God in it !!

I will take this on as my duty as a american this christmas Season to get as many Christmas Cards sent out !! to the uclu

Jesus IS the reason for the season !

















Jesus IS the reason for the season !
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:02 am    Post subject: What you can do Reply with quote

This is for Squeaky who asked the question.

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/wycd/index.html

From studying the report, and if it is true, If every person in the world changed to a more globe friendly way of doing things, they would never see the results of their efforts. Our grandchildren might benefit from our efforts, if the effort is made. I don't know if mankind can do that, especially with so many against cleaning up the mess.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:29 am    Post subject: No cover-up Reply with quote

Here is a response by a believer on global warming to the leaking of email written by climate scientists. I think both sides of the issue need to be studied don't you all? I am trying to stay on subject and not change it.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18238-why-theres-no-sign-of-a-climate-conspiracy-in-hacked-emails.html?full=true
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Last edited by mikewhite on Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, if that's the best they got, look out.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.grist.org/article/there-is-no-evidence/

Your lack of a proper response leads me to believe that your mind is made up and there is no debate going on here. I have listened to your arguments and linked to your sites. I have presented sites that say things that you and others do not want to hear and so you will ignore it. I am talking to a post.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis, in the past, I have enjoyed your thoughtful posts on many topics, but I must say that I am disappointed in your stance on climate change. It comes across like this: "China isn't doing anything, South America isn't doing anything, and the earth's polarity might flip, so why should I do anything?" Very second-grade. Change has to start somewhere. Oftentimes an example must first be set. Sure, some third-world populations are in no position to even consider being planet-friendly. They are concerned primarily with the essentials of life, like 'where is my next meal coming from?' or, 'Which warlords *hind end* do I have to kiss, to stay alive?' But we are in a position to help matters. We do have the resources and the ability to begin to effect change. So, why not do something positive for the planet?

Familyman, where did you pull that phytoplankton stat from? Oh, nevermind, I think I know. I'd like to see the 'science' on that one, speaking of proof. You gobble up the right's propaganda like a newborn babe. They're lucky to have you.

I'm not taking your bait Steve. I know way more about the history of Christmas and the origin of many of the traditions associated with it, that were borrowed from the pagan religions that preceded Christianity by thousands of years than you do, but I won't waste my time arguing about it here. I'm beginning to feel that my time could be much better spent, just about anywhere but on this site, given the mind-numbingly-high ignorance quotient. "Arguing with a fool, proves there are two" Feel free to banter on without me. Peace. Piper out.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And why I have stopped.. There is no middle ground or effort or even a "I would rather not pollute my planet even if there is no global warming.. " Shrug It's scary to me that these people come to the most special place I know of.. Probably also the ones that don't see a problem with driving their ORVs on the shoreline.. And, of course, they truly believe that bringing Christianity into the topic isn't changing it.. God created them, so they are perfect and always right with God on their side.. Be *darn* to the rest of us.. Funny.. I was raised to believe the opposite and that was the true Christian way.. LOL!! You know.. Forgiving and understanding of your fellow human.. Don't waste resources and share with others.. Even those of other faiths.. There are more than Christians that are Americans.. They come here for Freedom from pursecusion as Christians did in the beginning.. Yet here come the Christian Pursecutors!!!! The Ecological Pursecutors!! Where is our American Freedom!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Conis, in the past, I have enjoyed your thoughtful posts on many topics, but I must say that I am disappointed in your stance on climate change. It comes across like this: "China isn't doing anything, South America isn't doing anything, and the earth's polarity might flip, so why should I do anything?" Very second-grade. Change has to start somewhere. Oftentimes an example must first be set. Sure, some third-world populations are in no position to even consider being planet-friendly. They are concerned primarily with the essentials of life, like 'where is my next meal coming from?' or, 'Which warlords *hind end* do I have to kiss, to stay alive?' But we are in a position to help matters. We do have the resources and the ability to begin to effect change. So, why not do something positive for the planet?


OK, My thinking is second grade because it isn't aligned with yours. Nor is it aligned with Familyman.

Please point out where I have condoned pollution, or said we shouldn't be individually responsible for curbing polution or making green changes in our lifstyle.

And for all of our feel-good personal efforts and rhetoric, there appears to be wholesale destruction of entire ecosystems in third world countries, done by those with no clue or concern about global warming. All of which is cumulative and potentially contributing to problems. Lets toss in the fact that urban areas are expanding rapidly, world wide, which contribute heat reflection back into the atmosphere. (the short list)

It appears that the evidence of global warming is more than significant. I don't believe it is caused by one problem, or originating from one country. There are a lot of issues and variables, many of which are not clearly understood. The best scientists don't understand. So I can?

So lets fix it. What are "we" fixing, how and what are the priorities? And will it really have any effect when the other 95% of the planets population continues business as usual, world population and urban areas continue to expand? To me, those are valid questions. It just might be that because of technology, the sustainable population of this planet has been exceeded and so comes the impact?

Ok, lets set an example. Who's paying attention? I have parked my idealism quite some time ago. Somehow, I just don't see a logger in a rain forest "getting it" or even caring if he did have a loose grasp of a very complex predicament. To him, its all about the money and WTF is a glacier, anyway?

I have some ideas on what will "fix it" and I don't think it will be technology. This is another subject and mostly the impact of global warming on every person on earth. It won't be pretty, either.

Rather than takes sides, I'd prefer to try and get a handle on the big picture. A big one it is. Far more questions than answers.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy Piper, PLEASE don't take your football and go home... You are so eloquent when you button has been pushed. We so enjoy your wonderful way with words.. BTW the Pagan traditions you speak of, were derived from ancient practices observed by the human population when the extraterrestrials landed..Thousands of years ago.. Wink
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
BTW the Pagan traditions you speak of, were derived from ancient practices observed by the human population when the extraterrestrials landed..Thousands of years ago..


13337582 generations ago, my gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg grandparents came to Earth from Uranus as imigrant extra terrestials. No green card. This entitles me to Extrordinary Terestrial status. So... I get to know s**t no one else has a clue about. Kind of like Familyman. I get my information from scripts on rocks hidden inside caves, written by prophetic gophers... and secret websites unavailable except to Rush Limbaugh and Nancy Pelosi...

I am blessed (But not in a biblical sense, just lucky). I get to have an opinion about the fate of the Earth that doesn't mean squat to a turnip.

Hey... I can fix it. Simple. Just remove every human from the planet and and then, in ten thousand years or so... BINGO! Planet heals and back to "normal". Not all that complicated after all.

Technology has become God?

Have fun with this one.
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doug miller
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piper:

If China and India and much of the rest of the world do not take global warming seriously and so do not impose on manufacturers and others the very, very heavy tax that would be imposed here in the U.S., wouldn't that be the end of manufacturing, etc. in the U.S.? Why would any company choose to stay here?

The consequences as I see it are these: First, the job loss in the U.S. would be huge and would make what happened after NAFTA look like nothing.

Secondly, if the polluters left the U.S. for China and India and Russia, etc., the polluting would continue and, if you believe in it, so would the warming.

Because I am a global warming skeptic, I am not terribly worried about the second of these consequences. But I am worried about the first.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dougs first and second "consequences" seem to underscore the reality of this predicament. Whether global warming exists and what the USA govt intends to do about it, is moot in the world economy.

The old adage: part of the problem... or part of the solution? The USA is supposed to be the shining example and the "solution" to the problem caused by most of the rest of the planet?

NAFTA? Already our manufacturing base is being ripped out from under us by other countries. We are not competitive because of things like OSHA, EPA regs, workmans comp and a whole list of rules/regs/taxes that come up as overhead on a made in the USA widget. Like China, India really care about workers rights, health or standard of living? Or air pollution?

I am certain they can hardly wait for cap and trade... Just a bigger piece of the pie than they already have.

Shake it anyway you want. It's all about the money. Another tax and another blow to American industry and another element of control the government has on all of us. Sooner than later, the well will run dry as if those signs arent here, now.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/12/07/climategate.emails.facts/index.html

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/presentations/WGIstatement04122009.pdf

http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/publications_and_data.htm

http://www.ipcc-wg1.unibe.ch/publications/wg1-ar4/ar4-wg1-faqs.pdf

http://www.ipcc-wg1.unibe.ch/publications/wg1-ar4/wg1-ar4.html

http://www.ipcc-data.org/
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read them Mike. Couldn't open one. Now for the other 3,700 non-warming scientists.

http://www.petitionproject.org/review_article.php
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By L. GORDON CROVIT
Wall Street Journal

Unlike Watergate, Climategate didn't come to light because investigative journalists ferreted out the truth. Instead, this story so far has played itself out largely on blogs, often run by the same scientists who had a hard time getting printed in the scientific journals. Climategate has provided a voice to the scientists who had been frozen out of the debate.

This may be how information-based scandals play out in the future: A leak from a whistleblower directly onto the Web. Expert bloggers then assess what the disclosures mean—a Web version of peer review.

Much of the analysis is on the site of Stephen McIntyre, a Canadian who edits ClimateAudit.org. He has long tried to get access to raw data on temperatures. He filed numerous freedom-of-information requests of the East Anglia scientists, leading them to ask one another to delete records. He also showed that the familiar hockey-stick graph showing global warming was based on incomplete sampling.

Blogging scientists have been busy reviewing the 15,000 lines of code by programmers that were included in the "Documents" folder of the leaked materials. The latest twist is hidden notations in the data from programmers that indicate where they had manipulated results. The programmers expressed frustration when the numbers didn't fit the case for global warming.

Comments in the code include "These will be artificially adjusted to look closer to the real temperatures," referring to an effort to suppress data showing that the Middle Ages were warmer than today. Comments inside the code also described an "adjustment" as follows: "Apply a VERY ARTIFICIAL correction for decline!!" Another notation indicated when a "fudge factor" had been added.

There are three other data sets on historic temperatures, but blogging scientists have pointed out that they aren't completely independent of the now-dubious East Anglia assertions. Atmospheric data from satellites, for example, rely on the East Anglia surface data to calibrate their measurements.

In addition to blogs, skeptics of global warming have used "crowdsourcing" to improve on the science supposedly done by professionals. Anthony Watts is a meteorologist who was surprised by how local conditions affect the reliability of the 1,200 U.S. weather stations. Along with more than 600 volunteers, he found that almost all the stations violate the government's standards by being too close to heating vents or surrounded by asphalt.

Most of us remain skeptics. A Rasmussen Reports survey last week found that most Americans believe there is significant disagreement among scientists over global warming. Almost 60% of people thought it was at least somewhat likely that scientists have falsified research data.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:39 pm    Post subject: Petition Project Reply with quote

I looked at your link, but I will honestly say that I haven't read every word. I do get the jist of it. I am checking out the authors to see how legit they are. I can be as skeptical as any skeptic.

Arthur B. Robinson - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_B._Robinson
It appears that he also is a skeptic of Darwinism.

Noah E. Robinson, son of Arthur B. Both are in the medical field. Both involved in the Oregon Petition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Petition

Willie Soon - It is said that part of his research was/is funded by the American Petroleum Institute
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Soon

I noticed that their paper was published in a medical journal, a little strange. I wonder how the medical people could do a good peer review about climate change?
Stuff about peer reviews - http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/01/peer-review-a-necessary-but-not-sufficient-condition/

I want to make bold one part in the last link:
Put simply, peer review is supposed to weed out poor science. However, it is not foolproof — a deeply flawed paper can end up being published under a number of different potential circumstances: (i) the work is submitted to a journal outside the relevant field (e.g. a paper on paleoclimate submitted to a social science journal) where the reviewers are likely to be chosen from a pool of individuals lacking the expertise to properly review the paper, (ii) too few or too unqualified a set of reviewers are chosen by the editor, (iii) the reviewers or editor (or both) have agendas, and overlook flaws that invalidate the paper’s conclusions, and (iv) the journal may process and publish so many papers that individual manuscripts occasionally do not get the editorial attention they deserve.

I must say that your a little off in the number refuting global warming. It is claimed that almost a factor of 10 more signed this petition. I'll paste in some words found:
"The Global Warming Petition Project, or Oregon Petition, is the third, and by far the largest, of three prominent efforts to show that a scientific consensus does not exist on the subject of global warming, following the 1992 Statement by Atmospheric Scientists on Greenhouse Warming, and the Leipzig Declaration. The petition site currently lists more than 31,000 signatories."

I would say, you are safe to say there is not a total scientific consensus.

Here is more about the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine plus the authors of the article. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Oregon_Institute_of_Science_and_Medicine
I admit it is written to make the place look bad.
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Last edited by mikewhite on Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, you are awesome. You are making this fun.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,
I admit that I want to beleive that Climate Change is beyond the control the man. Therefore, I lean toward the research and sceintific studies that prove that we are just along for the ride. I also beleive in being a good steward and do my best to keep it clean. We, as Americans, have done a far better job of cleaning up our mess than any other country at any other time in history. I am proud of that. I am also proud that we, as the most powerful country at this time in history, have acheived more in the advancement of technology, human rights, living standards etc. and have also gone out of our way to spread the wealth across the world.
Look where we were 100 years ago.
We have acomplished this by giving people the opportunity to be the best they could be, take risks, decide their own destiny.
That is all changing now and I know the what the outcome will be. Without America the whole world will suffer and that's the shame of it all.



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy My Goodness, we have two people carrying on a spirited discussion from two points of view WITHOUT calling each other derogatory names... Keep it up guys. This shows your TRUE sophistication.. and civility..
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Global Warming - One of the coldest summers on record here in Iowa and we just got 12 more inches of "Global" warming last night with 40 mph winds and temps supposed to drop below Zero tonight -

And one thought! - - hasn't it been warming up since the Ice Age???
And all of a sudden someone noticed it Shocked
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 pm    Post subject: weater Reply with quote

The storm hit here last night and knocked out the power on the mainland side and also the line that goes to the West End. I'm running on a generator right now. I believe I read somewhere in all those reports that the US has so far bucked the world trend in getting warmer.

Most of those reports were from 2007 and were in the 4th assessment report. A 5th assessment report (AR5) will be coming out. Working Group 1 has a preview. Here it is.

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/presentations/COP15-presentations/stocker09unfcccCopenhagen_delegate_new.pdf
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