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Ron Paul
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh the middle class that think they follow the republicians will wake up when they don't have a job. Or when the job gets the wage cut in half. They had better wake sooner I hope other then when it is to late. If these people want cor[erate america to completely run this country. They will and then you will see your wages go down. That is what this is all about. It isn't balancing the budget. Thats an excuse This is all being pushed by coperate america. The republicians are paying back the campayne promises.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They really want to balance a budget then start at the top, not the bottom. Leave social Security alone. And leave Medicare and Medicade alone. Let the working people get us out of this mess. Start at the top. OIL Companys Ins company, pharmiseticale companys. They haven't ever paid a cent in taxes it is time. Then to the people making millions a year then on down. Quit sending money outside to over seas accounts so they can't be taxed. Then keep comming down then we don't mind giving. We just are tired of bailing out the wealiest people in the country.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They really want to balance a budget then start at the top, not the bottom. Leave social Security alone. And leave Medicare and Medicade alone. Let the working people get us out of this mess. Start at the top. OIL Companys Ins company, pharmiseticale companys. They haven't ever paid a cent in taxes it is time. Then to the people making millions a year then on down. Quit sending money outside to over seas accounts so they can't be taxed. Then keep comming down then we don't mind giving. We just are tired of bailing out the wealiest people in the country.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:11 pm    Post subject: WI Reply with quote

The federal Reserve gives Fannie and Freddie a massive bailout. Did foreclorsures for public or private workers go down? NOT.

GM was given a massive bailout. Some jobs are coming back but has unemployment gone down? NOT.

Giant insurance cos. got huge bailouts. Does everyone have insurance? NOT.

So why would anyone think that the government taking money from a group of patriotic Americans, Americans that worked responsibly, planned responsibly, and honored contracts, would somehow channel that money to regular Americans?

Where does the government want that public sector money to go? To corporate entities that FAILED. Call it tax breaks, call it subsidies, call it bailouts. READ MY LIPS...none of it will go to those light in the pocket book. It will float to the top, and we will be scambling for the crumbs.

Why would businesses that come to WI or MI succeed with a taxbreak? In my simple way of thinking, if you get something for nothing, so what if the business fails...you've lost some but since the business was artificially propped up, the loss is not terminal to the corporate elite. It is terminal for all the publlic workers whose money was taken.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:06 pm    Post subject: Ron Paul Reply with quote

I quit giving money to either party.

Ron Paul's campaign is the exception. In fact, today, Tuesday, Feb. 22, his campaign is having what they call a "Money Bomb" fund raiser.

You can 'wish' we could have a legitimate people's candidate or you can do something to get that candidate.

Here's the site to do what you can:

http://www.libertypac.com/
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with just about everything you said John.. Except Ron Paul is still a republician and there the ones that are trying to bash the unions. Ron Paul was one that voted for the Bush tax cuts for the most wealtiest americans. 100% of the republicians did. And he is still a republician. Snyder lied his way into office and got a lot of union support. Now he wants to get rid of them. The teachers and caroenders endorced him last year. Now see what he is doing. It is a national plot though to get rid of the unions.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets separate some apples from oranges.

Quote:
Why would businesses that come to WI or MI succeed with a taxbreak? In my simple way of thinking, if you get something for nothing, so what if the business fails...you've lost some but since the business was artificially propped up, the loss is not terminal to the corporate elite. It is terminal for all the publlic workers whose money was taken.


In these economic times, a small business that is taxed to the max is having a rough time turning a profit, much less being competitive in a global market. So cut overhead by relocating to a friendlier business climate, like another state or Asia.

I am not talking about mega public corporations requiring a gov't "tax break" or bailout when on the brink of failure.

I totally support the elimination of the single business tax in Michigan... and if it were up to me, the breaks would extend far beyond that. Having owned and operated several small businesses I feel somewhat qualified to step up on the soap box with this one.

Small business is the backbone of the American Economy. I speak of small privately owned business with between 5 and 100 employees. It doesn't matter if it's widgit manufacturing or services. At the end of the day, the reason for running a business is to turn a profit. Short of that, it ceases to be a business.

Do you have any idea the amount of taxes already levied on small business?Commercial property tax, real and inventory, use tax, workmans comp, taxes in utilities which are paid for at a higher commercial rate. Then there there are the endless strings of permits and inspections which are taxes for imposed services... All of it is overhead over and above all the rest of overhead which eats away at the bottom line.

The single business tax is pretty much like an "elevator tax"; A tax for the privilege of being a private business operating at a profit. In an unhealthy economy, it serves no purpose other than to further repress growth of small business.

Never mind that employees of this private business are paying income tax, sales tax and gasolene tax just to get to work. Tax-tax-tax and more tax. Crunch the numbers and the gov't is likely making more from small business' in cumulative taxes, than the proprietor is making in net profits.

If someone were running or about to start a small business, why in the hell would they locate in Michigan and get taxed to the max when they could just as well be located in a more business friendly state. Not all states have single business tax or otherwise such repressive taxes across the board. Or for that matter, just move it all overseas.

So... without such repressive taxes, the widget maker makes capital investments in production and hires on more employees to put more nuts on more bolts and the gov't gets more income tax, sales tax etc.. Then the government can hire more public employees with better benefits, pensions etc.

Employers and employees don't see this in the same way. The government seems to think they can stick their greedy hands into both pockets of both employers and employees, all at once. And somehow, small business will survive and so will the economy.

There is a difference between a business surviving and prospering. Most of the small business around here have closed their doors. It just cost too much to call it a business and break even, if that.

The Michigan big business money well has dried up. The small business money well is gasping its swan song last-gasp. If the Michigan economy stands the remotest chance of rebounding within the next 10-20 years (maybe), the tax greedy gov't is going to have to back it down and cut some slack. Maybe even consider "downsizing" itself rather than the knee jerk thing.

You can get blood from a rock... and that's the last option for the gov't to try. And fail, they will unless they regroup and conclude therey are no rocks left to pimp..

OR

If the single business tax were totally eliminated , on the basis that it is obscenely greedy and pushing things in the wrong direction.. and with that, small business were cut slack for long enough to regroup and bump things forward for while... Is this a "tax break"? Is this propping up a "failing business?" If the taxes hadn't gotten so goddam repressive during better economic times, they wouldn't need to be viewed as a "break" to outsiders not smothering under the weight of it all.

Increase taxes and everyone says "OH... OK..." How and when did rescinding or lowering taxes to improve the economy become viewed as a "break" or "propping up"? Had they not gotten so ridiculous and over the top in the first place... ???

At the rate and direction our Gov't has been going. Michigan will soon be the first enterprise free zone in the USA, Populated by broke retirees...
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Tax breaks Reply with quote

I'm refering to the TOP 60 corporations in the US. They Paid no TAXES. And that is not only a slap in the face to citizens, it is a slap in the face to the small business owner that HAS TO PAY their taxes.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree with John on this. That is what I was talking about the big business pays no taxes. I wasn't talking about small business I know I have paid small business tax for years.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm refering to the TOP 60 corporations in the US. They Paid no TAXES. And that is not only a slap in the face to citizens, it is a slap in the face to the small business owner that HAS TO PAY their taxes.


Hope we are on the same page here. Small business propping up big business dysfunction. And now, since BB is in the toilet, for whatever reason, Gov't is after the last blood of the dying rocks? Did I say that right?

Ya know, JEE, I have always been an employer, not an employee, never on the gravy train so to speak. No benefits, no pension, no friggin nothing except the bottom line which is/was my retirement. I learned how to run and operate a small business legally via creative book keeping, by the "rules". I trusted my self, my tax guy, my accountant but NOT the goddam money sucking government. It is a skill learning curve, to be a step ahead to have a bottom line thats worth the effort, 24/7/365.

Those that signed onto the public service gravy train and thought it would be all hunky dory forever after... and never have to fight for what they signed for , earned and deserve. Wake the F up. Now the gov't is in YOUR pockets, after the fact, just because they think they are entitled to your years spent. After the fact.

I have NEVER trusted our government to operate in the interest of the citizens. That piece of s*it aka "government" is self serving propped up by fools too dumb to work the cracks and/or drop out.

Excuse me for being an old 60's hippie radical that got it back then.

Power to the people. WTF ever that means. Power to those smart enough to work the loopholes, make a few bucks and survive, maybe get ahead a little. All the rest are gov't tax fodder/morons.

"I reserve the right to to reject your realty and substitute my own" ( M savage- Mythbusters).

Anyone attempting to run a small business in Michigan in this era, would have to be an attorney-Houdini-accountant... with a valid passport outta here.

Wasn't Michigan once "Michigan..The Water-Winter wonderland"? I have a 50's license plate that says that.

I ought to make a some new plates and sell them, that read:" Michigan. Get screwed so bad you will bleed, forever"
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:21 am    Post subject: RP Reply with quote

37 yrs ago I jumped out of college into the tching profession. I coached FB, wrestling, and basketball after the school day ended. 6 to 6 every day. Off season, I ran conditioning and training programs. I was absent less than a one day a year over my career.

I was a dedicated worker for the public. The classroom is the real "roman amphitheatre" for teachers. Try to imagine a class room of 25-35, tenth graders, 14 and 15 yrs old. Boys, girls...catch my drift. We are told to teach "gude speling, gramma, and punkuation." You can imagine the excitement of those students! The stress of some classes, was unbelievable. Gravey train? Try it.

Government Regulation kicked your a--, Conis. GOVERNMENT. Now the GOVERNMENT is trying to kick my a--. Until we kick back. they will shaft every one of us.

Every employer has to compete. As the wages drop for the public sector, private employers will drop their wages to the same level, for a comparable job.

This whole attack on public workers is the culmination of dozens of "thinktanks" across America. The collapse of the banks, mortagage co.s, Insurance co.s, and the giant bailouts and add to that the UNBELIEVABLE gobs of money going into our militarism, and you have DEBT times gadzillions...

Attacking public workers will not solve the problem. Amen.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what makes your argument tough to swallow JEE.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Government Regulation kicked your a--, Conis. GOVERNMENT. Now the GOVERNMENT is trying to kick my a--. Until we kick back. they will shaft every one of us.


Yes Gov't did kick my A** and basically put me out of business along with many others I relied on, and their employees too. Oh Well. there must be 1-2 more drops of blood in the rock, somewhere?

I could see where things were heading in 2003 (post NAFTA) and decided to wrap things up after 23 years of running a profitable enterprise, making a decent living and paying taxes like everyone else. I closed the books in 2005 and was able to do so in the black.

Fortunate hindsight. Had I kept going or attempted to ride things out, I would have gone bankrupt. In these times, I couldn't resurrect my business and run it at a profit unless I had everything contracted overseas... this it isn't a business, it is damage control by trying to sell quality by remote control.

With new laws and EPA regulations, it wouldn't be doable regardless of all else.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sidenote: Anyone trying to start a new small business, (especially in Michigan) by the book and on the table is entering a fools paradise of unparalleled proportion. Just navigating the few loopholes left would be a full time job.

Some had if figured out, at least for a while, working EBAY and raking in the $$$ globally. No way the IRS had the manpower to keep tabs on what is the worlds biggest garage sale, all under the table, as it once was.

Recently, Ebay has pretty much demanded that all transactions be through Pay Pal. To establish a pay pal account, requires you provide them access to a bank account for electronic in-out transfer. So there's the trail. I don't believe EBAY permits advertising that a vendor will accept money orders, or in other words direct transactions sans pay pal. So any profits derived from EBAY had better be reported including collecting STX from instate transactions. If I had to guess, the IRS is tapped directly into the paypal computer system. Red flag city.

I suppose, the only workaround might be to establish an ebay account in say Switzerland, or somewhere...

Isn't the information age wonderful?
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want to see what happened at lansing yesterday. Check out opperating engeers local 324 web site it will take you there. It is not good.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The USA today article may or may not be right on the mark.

Standing pensions and benefits are within a binding contract. If the government thinks they can start making adjustments after the fact, How so? Forthcoming may be a different story.

My daughter lives in Arlington Va and works for two federally funded agencies. Out of school three years with a masters in public policy and urban development ( a number cruncher). The amount of money she makes in salary and benefits is obscene. As does S.I.Law as well. Good for them, I guess. No reason to loiter around Michigan. The cost of living in the DC area is obscene as well.

Locally, our school system is bottoming out. Five school buildings: Three mothballed. Grades K-8 in what was the high school. 9-12 in what was the junior high. Enrollment down 60%. Teachers and staff pink slipped. Those teachers are unlikely to find another teaching job anywhere in Michigan. The school budget is below bare bones basic... including sports and any/all extra curricular. Pay to play.

People have packed it up and left the area or the state. Foreclosures all over the place. ( just remember to leave the keys in the door so the bank can find them).

So... that's what happens when the economy is stabbed in the back, front and both sides. It dies. And public infrastructure dies with it.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you on facebook JEE If you are go to my wall and look at the sites I put up there.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject: RP Reply with quote

Right guy: I do not know if my argument holds water. I definitely am not the last word on this whole deal.

Glanced at your article. I am not a FEDERAL worker. I was a state worker, working NOT for the state but for my local community...Cheboygan, Norfolk, and Bay City.

I am all for getting rid of the Federal Education Dept. Waste of huge money. Since you brought up federal workers, and that means federal Government workers, yes, there ARE huge cuts that could be made.

WILL OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES VOLUNTARILY CUT THEIR OWN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAGES? NOT!!

Someone answer this for me. Let's assume that WI, MI, NJ, etc. cut out the pensions, the health care amounts, and reduce wages of all public workers. That means there will be a lot of money saved, right? Will the state government cut your taxes to reflect that savings?? Laugh really hard out loud!! If you are a private worker or private business owner, you will not see one penny cut from your taxes...I'll put my state pension money on that!!!

Will we still have schools? Sure we will. They may be private. Who pays those people? Not the citizens anymore. But rather each parent of school age kids. It is called "tuition". Can you spell "Big Bucks"?

I have lived responsibly. I have 2 1/2 yrs to pay on my granny van and that is my only debt. No credit card debt, no mortgage, etc. I am willing to give up some of my HARD EARNED benefits. I can do that. But this whole collosal mess is not the fault of public workers!! And anyone fighting to squeeze more "water out of this rock" to cut our deficit has missed the point and the deficit will not be scratched. Mark my words.

Our CRIMINAL federal government is the culprit. Staighten them up, with a new president that actually understands that WELFARE for the rich must end! That will be the revolution. And it could get ugly. If you think something will improve for the average joe because of this cut to public workers, think again. The cash will flow to the corporate/government elite as it is now.

This whole scheme is not only an attack on public workers, it is an attack on every average wage earner, small business owner, independent contractor.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This really sums up the situation. Unbelieveable

Maddow Destroys Wisconsin's Gov Walker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7e4bj5rrd8
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John this is the republicians that is doing this not our president. I do think he needs to get stronger and quit giving into these republicians. This is what happens when we put a bunch of republicians into goverment at the same time. When they can't be controled. They want to knock off the democrates or the last of the democrates hold.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for Mich Snyder was indorsed by the carpenders union and the teachers look what is happening now. They just got trick into voting for a republician governor ,know he wants to kill the unions. Thats republician though. Oh by the way Rand Paul is part of this with the Tea Party.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:52 pm    Post subject: Snyder Reply with quote

Read this about Governor Snyder:

Govenor Snyder’s ten-member senior staff alone makes $1.4 million a year, and his twelve-member cabinet makes $1.9 million.

(Do the math: average-140,000.00 and $158, 333.00 dollars each)

John Nixon, the budget director, makes $250,000, which was increased from the former director’s salary because two departments were merged together. But is heading two departments really worth that much money?

(And somebody said something about addressing the budget problems...)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It don't matter how much the big pigs get. They will always want more. And the poor and middle class pay the bill.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put a bunch of articles on my facebook wall if you missed them and want to read them I don't know how to put them on here.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:07 am    Post subject: RP Reply with quote

It appears that this chorus to end public workers bargaining rights is a right wing initiative...thinktanks, like the Midland Mackinaw Ctr.

Democrats are saying nothing and feeding out the rope. I believe they are letting Walker, Christe, and Snyder hang themselves.

How can any leader cry "freedom" and deny workers a voice?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JEE,
I believe the tables have turned. You guys are the rich that are being targeted.

TOTAL COMPENSATION: STATE $39.66 PRIVATE $27.42
WAGES AND SALARIES: STATE $26.01 PRIVATE 19.39
BENEFITS: STATE $13.65 PRIVATE $8.02
PAID LEAVE: STATE $3.27 PRIVATE $1.85
SUPPLEMENTAL PAY: STATE $.34 PRIVATE $.83
HEALTH INSURANCE: STATE $4.34 PRIVATE 1.99
DEFINED-BENEFIT PENSION: STATE $2.85 PRIVATE $ .41
DEFINED-CONTRIBUTION PENSION: STATE $.31 PRIVATE $.53
OTHER BENEFITS: STATE $2.53 PRIVATE $2.40


Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Data for June.
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