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is it just me or does underage ORV drivers vex you too?
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, driving on BBI as a kid is just a happy memory. Nothing dangerous, no ATVs or dirt bikes screaming around (as I see so often). Just me, an old truck and miles of two-track. I wasn't looking for trouble.

The early driving experience on BBI was a lot safer than kids who are never behind the wheel until the moment they enter driver training - and their VERY first experience is on a highway or street with traffic and pedestrians nearby.

As I see it, there's no argument here. None of us wants to see people tearing up the Island with ATVs, or creating danger for themselves or others. And most of us who grew up with a respect for the Island also had the good sense to take it easy, or we knew we'd pay the price.

Dan
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white+begle
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

every one is calling me "white+begel", its begle not begel. sounds like the word "beagle" but spelled differently. no harm done, i get it all the time. i was actually thinking of changing my name to something else anyway.
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Al'sOtherSister
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will just call you Cayla Jean.....
And I think it is very responsible minded of you to care about the way some of the youngsters drive.
If you see them taking chances, just let their parents know...I know you would tell me if Zach was doing something stupid, right?
Anyway, nice topic...I bet alot of the Moms and Dads on here are looking alittle closer at their kids, and that's a good thing!
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white+begle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i wouldnt expect you to misspell my name anyway! and of course id tell u if zach was being stupid on his bike. he doesnt need another trip to the hospital. Razz i bet your not looking forward to that.
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katie
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cayla, how old are you?
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white+begle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im 16
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katie
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm sure plenty will disagree...but i wouldn't be a tattletale if i were you unless you feel TOTALLY comfortable doing so...my brother and i have made wonderful, probably lifelong friends on the island...it might not have been so easy if one of us had been known as a nark.

the bottom line is that these parents probably DO know what their kids are doing. i have a hard time believing that parents aren't noticing that their 14 year olds AND their vehicles are gone.

my advice to you is to just be 16. Enjoy the island like a 16 year old should. Let parents and law enforcement worry about these things. Don't get me wrong, It was great that you raised the issue especially b/c this is an issue that hits close to home for you, but don't lose sleep over it....
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white+begle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

um...hello, im not narking on them. how can i nark when everyone ALREADY knows? im just standing up for a GOOD cause! its BECAUSE the parents know is why i care so much! im not losing sleep over it or anything like that. im being 16, dont worry. and im not hurting my "popularity" because im "narking" either. im not theyre type anyway. and even before i "narked" on them ive nearly been run off the road on my bike by a passing dirt bike whos feeling a little too tall and gutsy. im sorry katie, but your DEFINATELY seeing things wrong.
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Last edited by white+begle on Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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katie
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

someone else suggested that you tell parents...

relax.

please don't imply that i think popularity is more important than safety.
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white+begle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

man your confusing. you were just telling me to not nark, and know your telling me to tell theyre parents. and once again, their parents DO know! and you Are implying that populartity is more important than safety! your saying not to nark when i just got thru telling you how these young kids ARE careless and dangerous!
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katie
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cayla, you are getting way too upset with all of your assumptions and exclamation marks so this will be my last comment to you.

1. someone suggested that you tell parents

2. I told you not to be a tattletale

3. you said "um...hello, im not narking on them"...yeah, Cayla, i got that but you sounded upset, like IT WAS ME who implying that you could be nark material...

4. when i said "someone else suggested that you tell parents.." was just to let you know that i was commenting on Al's Sister's (your aunt i am guessing) suggestions of telling parents if their kids are getting out of hand. I don't agree. That's all. If your family wants to instate and interfamily policy of telling the elders when the cousin's are getting out of hand, fine. That is family business, and none of mine.

i think you and i are on the same page...the parents already KNOW what their kids are doing.

next time be clear that you are just looking for people to agree with you instead of give their opinions.


Last edited by katie on Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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white+begle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

youve got your opinions, ive got mine. Smile

but heres mine...you need to grow up.

i never was upset. i am now. theres a difference between a tattletale and being a responsible person. thinking of other people. and i wont lie, but ya know your about me being jealous, but thats not all i am. i also care. i know it sounds stupid and corny, but its true.

sorry i wasted my time trying to reason with a cold brick wall (you, katie)

and you said yourself that you like a heated debate. why not this one? is it because some of the stuff you said was not true and you know it? thats just my opinion, sweetie.

im sorry for being a 16 year old.

th-th-that's all folks! Very Happy
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some where back someone said that we should let the parents and the law deal with the underage kids driving ATV's, dirt bikes, etc. This is true but with all honesty, will the officer actually deal with it? By dealing with the kids, he will also have to deal with the parents. And that is not too likely. The attitude is probably, we do not want to create any turmoil. This is not good! White-Begle thumbs_up!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok...so I am driving down the road and I see a kid, say 14 yrs old, and he/she is driving like a maniac, unsafe, whatever. First, my thought is to say something, to them or their parents, related or not. Unsafe is unsafe... Guess that is just the way I was brought up, and it sounds as if that is the way Cayla was brought up. There are always ways of saying something about it, without being a narc. Scenario....You see the parents in the store later on, " Hey by the way, I saw your kid tearing it up down the road, Graham see's them doing that, it's going to be trouble. " or
" Hey I almost took out your kid on the motorcycle today, you might want to tell him it was a pretty close call." That last one I used, and the parents talked to him and he was more careful later, as I was told...and thanked for the info.
Nuff said..........for me anyways!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

white+begle is raising an important point here. I wonder what these kids are learning? and how will it affect thier behaviors on the island as they get older?? 16, 18, 21, and then someday they have there own kids on the island....

my two cents, for what they are worth, irresponsible behavior tends to end up with dire consequences especially on ATVs and in vehicles. I am sure we can all think of tragic scenarios that have happened on the island. Raising awareness about the dangers of irresponsibility will only benefit all involved even if it takes time and maybe even hard lessons learned. (and create some good debates Smile )

My advice to you white+begle: keep raising awarness! people will listen and the universe will resond to what you project. And if I am around I will always be happy to give you a lift if you are tired of riding your bike.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so this was a fun topic eh? and might i say, sherriff doenst really deal with parents or the kids he pulls over. believe, i am guilty of 2 pullovers last year...yup i admit, one for doing "50" on my grandpas 30 year old yamaha 175, which hey i've done 50, but not on that ole' bike, i like going fast, and having fun, but 50 on that bike is suicide. another was when i was riding at night and someone called him saying there were atv's doing donuts and making lots of noise out in front of their place, and lucky me drove right by him on an atv, so sherriff assumed it was me...not to be mean or judgemental, but every year the good sherriff of our fine island has always had a grudge against my family...and i dont know why,so i just say have a good day, and drive away. so in my opinion, take it or leave it, fun is fun, the island is fun, let kids have fun, and if you have a problem, learn to have fun.

"and that's all I have to say about that." -Forrest Gump...good movie
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bbislandgirl
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well i fully support white + begle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I think that the one of you that's getting on Cayla's back about this whole thing (that'd be you, katie) and acting like she's a moron for even beginning to have concern about this is being ridiculous. She is simply showing concern for the safety of herself and others, including YOU! And for you to get defensive and act as if it is perfectly ok for people to let their kids ride around the main road like idiots and endanger people "because it's Boblo" is wrong. What happens when the 9-year-old goes ripping around the corner by the Pines Dock and the little 2-year-old strays away from the dock where she's swimming with her family, and the 9-year-old hits her? Then will it be ok because it's Boblo? And for that matter, what happens when the kid comes around the corner and hits ME, riding my bike, like any other kid my age or younger should. How 'bout that? Is THAT ok cuz it's Boblo? I think not. Just because YOU grew up on the island driving illegally, doesn't mean it's ok. I can understand generations before my own, such as you Dan Reynolds, and I can understand kids driving with their parents as passengers, or even a mature teen, of age, who does not yet have their license, driving around, but 8-year-olds ripping around on the main road, through the Pines, or wherever it is they go, is not appropriate. As I said in my previous post, I don't mind seeing them drive on back trails, as long as they use some caution, but I just don't feel comfortable with the fact that the sheriff, their parents, and the majority of the people that witness their dangerous and potentially deadly behavior don't have a problem with it. I guess that all I have to say to you katie, is that perhaps you should stop thinking of only yourself and the way you think, but of others and their opinions and concerns, too. Have a truly WONDERFUL day. And Squeaky, JessKidder, and Al'sOtherSister, I appreciate you supporting Cayla (and me for that matter) and am thankful that at least some of us islanders have a desire for general safety! Good luck with this Cayla!

Lauren

P.S. One more thing katie, what happens when that little 9-year-old hits YOU? If you survive, even without injury, the kid will likely not survive. And even though it wouldn't have been your fault, would you like to live with that memory, haunting you for the rest of your life, that memory of the day you took the little kid's life?

You frustrate me, katie.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I totally agree with you Cayla (and Lauren), Sometimes some things said require no reaction.. Katie has a point too. From one young person to another with a different point of view.. She can't force you to think like she does and visa versa. Let her have her opinion gracefully and with respect. I worried about being a nark when I was younger. Very Happy When I got older and a Mom I taught my kids; if it's hurting yourself or others you have a responsibility to bring it to the attention of an adult.. You did that on the board here.. Now you may want to write this all down in an intelligent way and present it to the township board.. Maybe you can request youngsters on ATVs be banned from riding without supervision in the Pines? I too don't appreciate this.. If it were me (as an adult, You Kids Better Not Do This!) and it were at all possible I would stop the little terrors myself and take the key.. When they complained I would tell them to go get thier parent to get it back and call Graham in the meantime.. But you know I'm mean! Can you imagine how that terror would feel? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still missing where katie was defensive...

i might be crazy *and there usually isnt a lot of opposition when i make that statement, but still* katie was giving an opinion just like everyone else's. only she disagreed. that doesnt mean she's angry or trying to be hurtful or defensive in any way. she just has a DIFFERENT opinion. to me, it's everyone else getting angry with her for saying what she thinks....
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why's anyone getting angry? Life's too short for this. Friends are more important on Bois Blanc than anywhere else. The person you're chatting with - or bickering with - on this bulletin board might just be the person you need to count on in a life-or-death situation.

I don't care how many paved runways and 911 operators ever service the Island - it is a desolate place. We have to take care of ourselves and one another, because in most cases, we're all there is. I sure don't want to p*ss anyone off, 'cause I might need you one of these days. Wink

Dan
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katie
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

katie wrote:
i also learned to drive on the island before i was of legal age...i agree, it is very valuable training...i think having a parent or relative teach you to drive is much better...some teacher in a driving class doesn't know you, doesn't know your level of awareness, doesn't know your reflexes or sense of surroundings...i was even lucky enough to learn to drive a stick when i was about 15...i probably wouldn't have been so eager to learn if i had to do so in a city...

at least in this case, maybe these kids will turn out to be better drivers.


I quoted myself above so there would be no more misunderstandings about my feelings on this issue as this is the ONLY time I even remotely addressed the issue of whether or not kids should be able to operate heavy machinery. In addition, I was never allowed to drive alone. I only said that my parents taught me to drive and I still believe this is valuable experience...

I never said I didn't agree with Cayla...I just gave her advice on how to deal with her annoyance because I never really thought this was a debatable topic...and that is why I never mentioned anything about dirt bikes or ATVs.... OF COURSE 8 year olds shouldn't be allowed to operate anything other than an electric toothbrush..

I have already lost a father, and I would rather die than lose my mom or brother, ESPECIALLY if it was something so senseless as a little kid on a dirt bike....believe me Lauren, I respect life and I have lived through heart-breaking death...I ask that you refrain from publicly addressing this issue with me...please send me a private message if you would like to discuss it further.

Thanks to the few who believe I should be able to state my point "gracefully and with respect."
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just cant refrain from jumping in on this one. And I apologize for the length of this post in an effort to bring things into perspective.

This seems like it is going around in circles with name calling and who’s to blame and who’s on first? Common sense went where? Isn't this a discussion where someoen can have an opinion without fearing the P.O. factor? It appears (to me) there has been a problem recognized. Who, how and when is the debate.

The last time I was on BBI, I encountered (head on) a whole string of kids on 4 wheelers smoking around the 15mph curve on the south shore drive like it was the autobahn . Doing 30-40 easy and half sideways and nearly in the oncoming lane. Had I not been alert and half off the road with my pickup, one of them could have easily had the GMC grill logo imprinted on them, somewhere. It was equally obvious that many of these kids were riding “adult” machines.

You bet Michigan has laws regarding age 16 supervised/unsupervised for dirt bikes, ATVS , snowmobiles etc and all for very good reason. It is highly recommended that ANYONE (regardless of age) take a safety training course and wear the proper riding equipment. Sounds kind of paranoid and stuffy doesn’t it?

If you haven’t looked at a new 4 wheeler (showroom) lately, you ought to. There are so many warning stickers on one that you can’t see the paint. I especially like the big one on the gas tank with the top ten list of things to avoid which could prove fatal. The owners booklet is more detailed. When you actually take possession, the dealer makes the purchaser sign off on a liability disclaimer should they opt out of the recommended safety course. Would these be clues that there are risks?

The accident statistics for 4 wheelers is staggering and this includes adults, as well. What are these kids parents (not) thinking??? Or are they even aware of the potential risks? 4 wheelers are not golf carts. Inexperienced riders, powerful/heavy 4 wheelers and public roads w/traffic are an absolute slam dunk recipe for disaster. Not IF, But WHEN. It mostly has to do with lack of experience, the cognizance of “where the edge is” or the recognition of the do-something-stupid consequences. What happens when you get a “pack of kids” on these machines? It turns into a race and judgment, (if any) goes right out the window. Enter “Show off mode“. I was a kid once, and a much smarter kid, now.

Joke: What’s the last thing a red-neck says before he dies???

“WATCH THIS!”
Seems to ironically fit, here.

For the record, I am NOT opposed to responsible recreational use of off road vehicles. I grew up on motorcycles and have owned a fleet of bikes and ORVS (all descriptions) over the years. I am a certifiable octane/power junkie. If it burns gas, does wheelies or has enough power to go 0-60 in 4 seconds, I still get off on it. As an old guy, some would think I would have wised up and gotten over it. Not so. Gets in your blood. It is still fun. BUT… I have long learned where the boundary between safe and stupid is, the hard way. Evil Knievle (sp) 101, and I passed.

I bring this confession forward for several reasons:

(Street survival rule #1 on motorcycle) Public roads are not a place to hot-dog. Some drivers may think that because you are on a small vehicle you can only have a small accident… or not see you at all. Defensive driving 101, assume nothing and lights on always.

By responsible ATV use: This means NOT tearing up the landscape or pulling stunts so as to endanger other riders or bystanders. “If you want to show off or test the edge, go kill yourself away from every one else”.

I have a plethora of broken bones and a permanent limp from my youthful octane-induced misadventures. I am not bragging about this. I am just glad I survived the learning curve. The only real way to gain respect for one of these machines is to make a mistake and flip one, run into something or have some sort of accident just serious enough to create a lasting memory and still be OK enough to “climb back on the horse”. It is that recollection of pain which underscores RESPECT.

Counting back over the last 25 years or so, I think I am on my 6th ATV which would include a 70’s 3wheeler “Honda Big Red” (remember those death traps?) My first 4 wheeler was a Suzuki 125 cc 2wd with a top end of maybe 30. Had a rope pull starter. Pretty tame by today’s standards. Over the past 20 years, the 4wATVS have gotten bigger, heavier, faster, and meaner. The top end “utility “models are anything BUT entry level, learner machines. I am not even talking about the race-type 4 wheelers that go 100mph. (Those are a fools paradise)

A year ago, I decided to trade off my aging 350 Honda 4trax. What did I come up with? A Brand new Kawasaki Prairie V-Twin 700 cc ROCKET with 1(one) engine hour. (This would be equivalent to the Corvette of utility 4 wheelers) $2500 off the retail off new, paid three days prior. Now “used”. Purchased by adult who had never been on a 4 wheeler in his life and got a hankering to go get one… so he started at the top. Predictably, the machine got away from him, he flipped it over backward, and fortunately with out serious damage to rider or ATV. But serious enough he scared the hell out of himself and gave it back at a loss. Bad decision for a machine to learn on. Me? I have already been there and done that. I am not going to wheelie to 80mph just because it is possible to do so. This machine is an absolute thrill to ride… and best suited to a rider who understands the concept of torque, power and what happens if same isn’t used with respect and reserve.

Bottom Line? What would happen if you put an experienced rider on this sort of ATV, one who wasn’t used to “spooky” power, liked speed and turned him/her loose on the roads of BBI? Someone would be hauling the pieces out of the cedars. Sorry for the image. A typical result which comes from inexperience and overconfidence, regardless of age.

Parents who permit kids to irresponsibly operate ATVS or dirt bikes, snowmobiles or whatever with or without direct supervision will be held responsible at the time a serious accident does occur. This is reality.

My best friends son (age 14) started snowmobiling with us this year. He is riding an entry level light, small displacement sled he can handle. Top end of 50, (down hill). And after his first season, he has gotten some confidence and handling it pretty well. But he doesn’t ride it solo. It is against the law for one thing. The other reason is the “hot dog factor” which he demonstrated on one brief solo run, and lost it. From losing it, he learned something of survival value: The edge… Not ready for prime time, yet.

Apples need to be separated from oranges. ATVS are a thing of the past 20 years or so. There is a place for them, depending on how they are used and by whom. This is NOT the same as learning to drive a car on sparsely used roads or two-tracking at sane speeds.

I think we are all pretty much on the same page here. This has obviously become an issue no one knows exactly how to deal with for fear of offending someone or “ratting someone out” or whatever.

This is about safety issues which apply to everyone on the island no matter how desolate it sometimes is. Just when you think you are out there in BBI BFE, a 40mph surprise comes around a blind corner on a one lane two track. Whoops?

It will get dealt with, hopefully before, rather than after.

At least from my beat-up-but-survived, perspective.

C
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is so well said Conis. Very wise man. Thank You! Hopefully your message will be read by everyone to the very end.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:11 pm    Post subject: hm..... Reply with quote

after being away from the site for a bit....

i see some people are not being so tactful with wording...

My sister and I have been coming up to the island for a LONG time....we have seen our share of a bit of everything....

people are entitled to their own opinion and if an elder has an opinion...HEED it, don't agree if you don't believe it....but heed it please....they have been through more in life than most of us...

publicaly degrading people does nothing but show immaturity....i agree with lots of points on this.....but if you have a problem with an opinion....watch what you say or use a private message

--Pete

cold brick wall?...please do not to pretend to know my sister after reading 4 posts by her.... thanks Smile
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