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is it just me or does underage ORV drivers vex you too?
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not going into the mud.

I did find some info on ATV accidents in regard to underaged/inexperianced operators. Kind of scary reading. (links below)

Pending further positive posts by others, I have something of interest I will share on how a similar situation was addressed, channeled and handled.

C
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http://www.auto-accident-resource.com/atv-accidents.html

http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/news/atv-injuries-deaths.html

http://www.atvtime.com/steelriders/Features/Others/DeathAndYourATV.html
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bbislandgirl
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd just like to further clarify my position in this debate. I support Cayla and her concerns. And from reading her first few comments, I don't think that she was looking for the subject to get blown this much out of proportion. She was not looking for the fights or name calling. And by commenting on the topic, neither was I. katie, I never said you do not value life because I believe everybody involved in this debate does. If you misunderstood what I said then I'm sorry. My standing in this debate is simply this; I have been going to Boblo since I was 2 months old. I am the 5th generation in my family to have lived there. It is the most important place in the world to me. I don't like the thought of an innocent pedestrian, biker, or car or ATV rider being injured or killed. And when I see a string of immature ATV riders (underage) fleeing down the road going 40, it scares and worrys me. I am not saying that I am against ATVs or kids riding them, I'd just like to see people, underage or not, using more caution, and to see little kids riding them on the back trails. After all, it is illegal for them on the main road. I understand that on the island, the rules are bent a little (seatbelts, speeding, etc.) but I do not agree with all the allowance of premature drivers on the road. As I've said previously, it does not bother me at all to see a young teen driving with an adult or even riding ATVs (when using caution on back trails) but i am not comfortable with the thought of little kids driving around like maniacs and the potential damage and havoc that could result in their careless behavior. I have a little sister who is almost 5 and a brother who is 3 and the thought of anything happening to them sickens me. And the thought of anyone else getting injured does too. I know that age isn't everything, but I think that a person obviously matures more as they age. My older brother's friend was just killed on a motorcyle about a week ago, when a car ran a stop sign and hit him, so I can only imagine what would happen to someone on a little dirtbike or 4-wheeler. As I sign off, I'd just like everyone to know that I am not paranoid about this situation, and am not losing sleep over it, or a "nark" for that matter (I have never said anything to the sheriff about this), I am just concerned about the safety of the islanders and the comfort that I think most of us would like to have when we're up there. I did not mean to offend anyone if I did, and if so, I'm sorry. I am just giving my input, same as everyone else.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject: STATE STATUTES Reply with quote

Al's Sister wrote:
Although I totally agree with you Cayla (and Lauren), Sometimes some things said require no reaction.. (edit) Now you may want to write this all down in an intelligent way and present it to the township board.. Maybe you can request youngsters on ATVs be banned from riding without supervision... Very Happy


Good start... Good finish. BUT HOW TO FIX IT?

I “think” the crux of this “debate” has evolved from the issue of underage ATV safety problem on the island, and/or laws being blatantly “bent” to how to approach it and by who? This situation is remarkably similar to one I found myself involved in just this past summer. I will try to briefly frame it. (short version).

This parallel situation involves a dangerous stretch of Cheboygan county road. There have been numerous accidents, a teen-fatality and god-knows how many unreported close calls. I know about much of it since I am “right there”. The road was paved 3 years ago. The average speed of traffic is between 60-70 (including semi trucks) it is supposed to be 55 and realistically should be 35 as it is within a residential area with kids on bikes and pedestrians; “Hazard Alley”. Or in other words, another horrific accident waiting to happen. Unless something is done, soon, one will… and it will be a doozie, when it does.

Me? I have personal interest in this since I was run off the road and narrowly escaped what could have been a very serious high-speed head-on accident. I was told “This was an excessive speed issue” or “this is the road commissions problem” etc. Always some reason or lame excuse…Pass the buck.

This situation had become one where all the local residents / property owners were totally fed up and liked to stand around in a circle and gripe. (as has been done in this forum, going around in circles). No one has the time to initiate any action nor knew where to even begin… or with who… or in a way something actually was accomplished? So status quo. Solutions seemed outwardly simple but actually quite complicated and politically messy since there were a number of trade offs… none of which satisfied all interests.

I called the township supervisor, discussed it with him, and had this issue added to the next twp meeting agenda. I went to that meeting and made a little speech for the record. I also wrote a tactful letter describing the problem from the perspectives of all those I had discussed it with, and sent it (certified ) to the township board, as a “letter of record”.

Did it fix the situation? I don’t know, yet. I didn’t attend the follow-up twp meeting to find out. I wasn’t going to be the solo “point man” on this problem or take this as a personal crusade. However “the buck” was formally and officially passed to the township. Now it is the twp’s official problem. Let them solve it.

Should “they” choose to ignore this and there is another accident? Whomever could have prevented it, having the authority to investigate this problem and make corrective changes, will then have a HUGE problem on their hands. So, a letter of record is basically a “heads up” and “food for thought” document . Officials are paid to do these jobs and protect us from ourselves (?) Might as well let them justify their existence. The wheel squeaked loudly and hopefully put some gears in motion.

On my desk sits a little plaque: “Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome”. Sometimes someone has to step up to the plate and take a swing. Sometimes it may mean not being the most popular. That or sit back and just take it. What did I have to lose by taking a swing? My life? Or someone else’s? This situation is way more important than confidentiality, neutrality or popularity.

Do you see the parallel here? Everyone frustrated and griping. Problem identified. Now what? Do you see the solution? It is ultimately Deputy Whipple’s problem. The township doesn’t have to enact any new ordinances or change anything.

DW is the law enforcement officer on the Island, and between rocks / hard spots. I wouldn’t want his job. Not only is he a law officer, he is an arbiter and peace keeper. He has to get along with everyone do the best he can to keep people getting along with each other. I think, for the most part, he works to settle issues rather than create them. He needs cooperation more than a rep for being a hard***, which I certainly don’t believe him to be. This is only my opinion.

DW has the option of ignoring a law being broken, or issuing warnings, citations and/or impounding vehicles. I guess it is his call, so far? He can’t be everywhere at once and maybe doesn’t perceive the problem as being as serious, as some others do? (YET) Maybe twp board needs a heads up and discussion with DW on to approach this with some tact and a strategy?

With a formal “letter of record”, (or complaint or description of the perceived problem). The twp then has the option of taking action or not. And if NOT... Then there is accountability for negligence after the fact, with the knowledge of this issue before the fact. This is how things are supposed to work. This is a safety issue… and a township and law enforcement problem. Let them handle it.

Maybe all it would take is a “heads up” printed “public notice” issued by the twp board re supervised ATV usage on the island, posted at the post office, Hawks and other public places. A “reminder to parents” with the state law statutes published in black and white. It could well be some parents are clueless about the law? Word gets around. This could well be the end of it without making a federal case of it? Called cooperation among all involved.

This is merely a suggestion on how to approach this in the right way and through the right channels and with some sanity.
__________________________________________

I truly do appreciate “the freedoms” and what is lost to rules and regulations. I guess these rules/regs become necessary when freedoms are infringed. I don’t see any limits or exclusions. A few bad apples spoil it for all, don’t they? Pretty soon, rule bending becomes status quo because it is allowed to fly… Like “running with scissors”, because so and so did it and got by with it.

I also know how I was when I was a kid and what kids (boys) will do when beyond eyeshot of supervision as in “watch this”. Who will be the boldest hot-dog, today? The “16 year old laws” are there for a number of very valid reasons. Boater safety, hunter safety, ATV safety, drivers ed… I know what we did as clueless kids, all well before “safety classes” and without mandated supervision. I need not go any further except to say I survived… but in looking back, am not sure how or why. Kids would never get by with what we did, way back then.

If this is a problem, then who wants to be the "point man", step up to the plate and say what needs to be said to the persons most needing to hear it? Who has the guts to maybe be unpopular? What far-worse could happen by saying nothing?

Power sports are great fun and something I endorse as a family recreation. Bottom line: Safety has to come first, always, and without boundaries or exceptions.

C
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State statutes

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-324-81129&highlight=OFF%20ROAD

http://www.offroad-ed.com/mi/handbook/age_restrictions.htm

It's the Law—Young ORV Operators Operator Age Restrictions
Restrictions are in effect on the operation of ORVs by children under the age of 16. There also are specific obligations that fall upon the parents or legal guardians of ORV riders under the age of 16 and upon the owners of ORVs.

(excerpted)
Children who are 10 and 11 years old may operate 4-wheeled ATVs only when all of the following conditions are met:
ORV is being operated on land owned by the child’s parent or guardian.
Operator is under visual supervision (see definition below) of an adult.
Operator possesses a valid ORV safety certificate.

Children who are 12–15 years old may operate 4-wheeled ATVs only when both of the following conditions are met:
Operator is under visual supervision of an adult.
Operator possesses a valid ORV safety certificate.

Visual Supervision is defined as having direct observation with the unaided eye and the ability to come to the immediate aid of another ORV operator.

Remember... The parents or legal guardians of a child under the age of 16 are legally responsible if they permit the child under their care to violate any of the ORV laws. The owner (or person in control) of an ORV is also responsible if his or her ORV is operated by a youngster.

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Al's Sister
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Conis, for all the information and lesson learning you have gathered and shared with us.. Being as I am not on the Island or a property owner I'll pass on the 'point man'. Although I wouldn't hesitate if I were there.. I don't want to get anyone into a tail spin but this is a ongoing problem and I wouldn't be at all surprised if people consider banning ATVs from the Island. There have been numerous complaints of ATVs running up and down the beaches too. Not good where protected plants and plovers reside.. When it concerns life and limb, someone needs to step up to the plate.. A letter of record is a good start.. Anybody? I would hope the parents of these terrors understand that doing nothing about thier own kids could mess it up for everyone.. Too bad, sooo sad. Sad
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Conis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al's Sister wrote:
I don't want to get anyone into a tail spin but this is a ongoing problem and I wouldn't be at all surprised if people consider banning ATVs from the Island. There have been numerous complaints of ATVs running up and down the beaches too. Not good... Sad


Id hate to see ATVs banned from the island. Morons running beaches need to be educated is all. Do it because they don't know not to. This is the sort of things giving ORVs a bad name. Irresponsibility.

ATVs are allowed on roads in the UP, Mackinaw county is part of the UP. I am not sure they could be banned on BBI alltogether without a direct DNR exclusion order. I hope things don't go this far because that is the other extreme. But I could see how this might get there, unless things come under control. Someone has to be point man to bring things forward.

Here is the issue from still another perspective: Reality Check DeLuxe
________________________________________________________

Things which few consider: (if this doesn’t scare the hell out of thoughtless parents, nothing would)

I recall, maybe 6-8 years ago (reading about) an incident where an underage operator on a Sea Doo hit and nearly killed a water skier. No boaters safety certificate, not under supervision, no property damage or liability insurance on the PWC (it wouldn’t have mattered if there was under these circumstances since it was being illegally operated). Who do you think went down like a sack of dirt? Not the kid. A negligence felony charge and ??? of thousands of $$$ in legal and medical expenses, forever and ever? “The gift that keeps on taking away”.

ATVs are no different. Snowmobiles are no different.

Few realize that homeowners policy PL and PD insurance only applies to an ATV which is kept and operated on the homeowner's premises. If used on public roads/trails, a separate PL/PD insurance rider is needed. And for that coverage to be valid in the event of an accident, the operator would have to be "street-legal" as defined by state statutes. Over 16 or under 16, supervised, and with a safety certificate. And generally conforming to any/all other laws such as helmet, speed limit etc.

This is like an ATV version of Russian roulette: Those who might permit underage, unsupervised ATV usage (with or without a certificate) truly do not understand what HUGE risks they take. “Getting your a** sued off” takes on world class meaning. If YOU were injured by someone illegally operating an ATV, PWC or sled, who do you think your insurance company would go after? They would win and it wouldn't be pretty for the individual who permitted it through negligence.

Thats how things really work in the real world... including on BBI.

C
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Squeaky
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might not hurt for the township to post rules, warnings about ATV's, dirt bikes and such on both ferry's. That is where most of the ATV's are brought over on. Better yet, the rules and warnings could be handed out directly to the people bringing them over. Also these rules should be handed out to the residents of BBI. Everything needs to be in black and white. And it all has to be enforced, otherwise it is all just a lot of hot air.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think so too.

Simplest and most straight forward approach.

The saying" Ignorance of the law is no excuse"? Who thought this one up? there are so many laws on the books even a lawyer can't figure them all out, nor can courts.

How are ATV operators supposed to comply with law/rules they are unaware of? And this is probably 90% of this issue.

C
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white+begle
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok poppa boot hands. i just called her that because her attitude kinda teed me off. her attitude seems to spread and dont get me wrong, but i think she should have an opinion but the way she brought it about was a little confusing and agrivating. im sorry if i seem like a b***h Sad but i mean no harm.
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Poppa Boot Hands
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:51 pm    Post subject: yea... Reply with quote

you can call me Pete Smile thanks!
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white+begle
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok
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