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Attn Deer Hunters! Part II
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Conis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:55 pm    Post subject: Attn Deer Hunters! Part II Reply with quote

I assume many using this site are sportsman/hunters. As I am. And "the" season is coming up. And no offense to bow hunters intended. Been there, too. This relates to 11/15 which is a national holiday in Michigan.

I have been thinking/looking for "topics of interest" to get OFF this ferry thing for a while... so I am going with the flow.

If you looked at the (my)other dumb post re: The "loop-old" scope... I made this thing as a not-so gag gift for a hunting bud who is hooked on junk rifle scopes and wonders why he hasn't nailed a buck in ??? years? I have tried to coach him . It has been the most frustrating experiance in recent times. And he just did it again! Already complaining "gee it isn't sharp/bright, BLAH BLAH BLAH. Go tell it to the wall. Get what you pay for. Go throw another $100 in the toilet. If you want a decent scope, get your wallet out and go buy a real one. If you want a deal, I'll whip you up a loop-old special. Forget-it-all. I am one frustrated coach.

Thinking maybe a thread on equipment/scopes/popup blinds/ammo/whatever. Somebody else jump in here... get something going of interest. Nor will I MC the thread.

YOUR TURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Help me out, here!!!

C
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:52 am    Post subject: Sugestions Reply with quote

You should really be working on that TuTu so you can set down and Play my Steel Guitar next year!!!!!!
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: Sugestions Reply with quote

Ron Petersen wrote:
You should really be working on that TuTu so you can set down and Play my Steel Guitar next year!!!!!!


OK... You send me a picture of you wearing a tutu in your tree stand and I will give it futrther consideration!

Sitting at the breakfast table... reflecting about seasons past and a piece of equipment NOT recommended would be those lighter fluid pocket warmers. Aside from smelling like a zippo. One of those cost me a very nice jacket re a "coat fire". The good news is that I wasn't wearing it at the time although I had forgotten to extinguish it when I came in. The even better news is that I was there to see it hanging on the wall with smoke pouring out of a a former front pocket?

Don't put one of these in the pocket of your tutu. It might not be pretty.
C
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:00 pm    Post subject: To Post or Not To Post, THAT is the question. Reply with quote

I feel very ambivalent about the 11/15 holiday.

Deer have no natural predators on BBI. They are a nuisance at best, and at worst, deer are ecologic disasters that carry Lyme Disease, Mad Cow Disease, and TB. (I liken them to forest rats.) It's important to have hunters thin the population.

However, my interaction with hunters themselves has been neutral to negative: Over the years, I've had to pick up shot gun shells, beer cans, camping garbage, and tear down illegal blinds from up in trees and deep in the woods. All on MY BBI property. And I've observed worse desecration on neighbor's property.

I've observed that most hunters on BBI are terrible woodsmen. They don't understand the forest or its creatures. They're dependent on KMart for supplies. No sport at all.

I stay away during hunting season because otherwise I would be tempted to post no trespassing/no hunting signs, and erect miles of fencing.
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wine country
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:01 pm    Post subject: Attn deer hunters part 2 Reply with quote

I think Charlie is holding back on his true feelings.....Good luck to all gun hunters on the island....A balance of nature is a sensitive issue....With all respect to nature a deer is truely majestic animal....To those who partake in the rewards of a sucessful hunt, they are doubly blessed and understand that sensitive balance..... Idea Regards, Kevin....
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: To Post or Not To Post, THAT is the question. Reply with quote

Smile

Last edited by islendbird on Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:00 pm    Post subject: Well...........you're right.............sort of Reply with quote

I live around lots of coyotes. I think of them generally as small dogs. I'm familiar with their ability to take down a deer when they are out in packs. I haven't seen packs on BBI.In my experience, mountain lions seem to feast on deer. I'd love to see wolves introduced on the Island.

On BBI there are lots of areas that show signs of over-grazing by deer. Many times in the past I've noticed the deer on BBI to be small and unhealthy in appearance, which is another sign of overpopulation.

Does anyone know what the deer population per square mile is on BBI? My sense is that it is 1.5-2X too high. (ie, 30-40/640 acres)
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bknoll
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not trying to stir up trouble with Charlie....but, the hunters that I have come across during bow season have been great people. Granted, bow and gun could be two different animals here. We rarely see other hunters during bow but the ones that we do are very serious hunters. I have never gun hunted on the island. Are there a lot of people on the island for gun season?
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:30 pm    Post subject: Coyotes Reply with quote

Charlie - I don't know why it would be different up there, and I don't think it is from talking to others up there, but if you see one Coyote, you missed seeing the rest - they are very "pack" oriented and they do kill a lot of deer on the island just as they do in at home here in Iowa - Probably more so up there as they get many fawns the first year. If you want to have some fun, find a siren and set if off at night and you will find they are in packs more than alone - they just go nuts when the hear a siren.
Anyway, it works down here.
C Ya - Ron
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile

Last edited by islendbird on Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:27 am    Post subject: Coyotes Reply with quote

25 years ago, coyotes were an unknown around here. Then they started appearing and now they are at nuisance levels. Consensus being they were "re established" by the DNR as a measure to control the deer herd. And that they have done. I appreciate checks/balances in nature. They are "controlling" a lot of other wildlife in addition to the deer heard. I have seen a pack take down a deer and it isn't pretty. I have them come up around the house at night. I have had them in my garage. My neighbor lost 3 dogs to them. I HATE EM. Why? Nasty and I have had to deal with them.

Niegobors hunt them with hounds and do a pretty good job of keeping them thinned out. BUT... there is a biological term for some species including coyotes which simply means they adjust their own numbers as needed, the more they are thinned, the more profilic they become. Ranchers, out west, shoot, trap, poison them to no end. They never get them all. Which might be good. but the war will never cease.

Wolves? "Here doggie doggie" The deserve a place in the wilderness. They are not compatible in agricultural or "civilized" areas. Their populations are maintained by social tolerance (as in, how many bullets ya got left). I am not going into this. There are entire websites/ boards devoted to this issue. Basicaly it boils down to the the tree huggers thinking it is good to "bring back the wilderness", as long as it isn't somewhere they live or farm or have small kids, pets etc..

Now wolves are in the Pigeon River area. DNR denied it until recently and was unconcerned. Well now they are concerned since there has been evidence of wolf pack kills on the DNR-PR "pet elk". Geeze, they didn't figure on that? I have a distinct feeling the DNR will manage this predicament, very quietly. Thats what they do... "manage things".

C

PS, Five years ago, I confronted a wolf while fishing in the Pigeon. I reported it to the DNR who told me I was nuts. This is a long story I will save for some other time/place. It was anything but a "thrilling wilderness specticle"

This thread was intended to discuss deer hunting etc. Anyone got an opinion on DEER BAITING?
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bknoll
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis.....I would love to hear about the wolf confrontation. Interesting on the influx of coyotes. We have a lot of them in my area of Southern Saginaw County (where I teach) and southern Genesee County (where I live.) Have they always been here? If not, how in the heck did they migrate to so many different areas? I've never seen any hitchhiking down 75 or 23! I like the theory of the DNR plant.

Michigan-sportsman.com is a great site. You should check it out if you haven't already. Always lots of discussion about baiting, equipment, hunting ethics etc. I'm not sure I have enough time here to talk about the pros and cons of baiting. We'll have to have a cup of coffee on the island to talk about that one.
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:28 am    Post subject: ||||||||||||||Bring Back The Wilderness|||||||||||||| Reply with quote

Which will it be? Undeveloped, or developed? Woods or subdivision? A place of peace, quiet, and beauty, or engines, commotion, and discarded beer cans?

It's your choice.
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Cindy Riker
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's my understanding the coyotes have come across the ice in the winter. We've seen a lot of them and hear them quite often. The deer herd is definitely down over prior years.....be it from coyotes or hunters. Sad
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cindy Riker wrote:
It's my understanding the coyotes have come across the ice in the winter. We've seen a lot of them and hear them quite often. The deer herd is definitely down over prior years.....be it from coyotes or hunters. Sad


I'd give it to the coyotes. As I mentioned, they regulate their numbers according to food supply. On the island, maybe close to a natural balance?

The come across the ice, just as the wolves have made their way into the lower. (so being the DNR position on how they got there...)

C
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bknoll wrote:
Conis.....I would love to hear about the wolf confrontation. Later when I have time to type it all out

Michigan-sportsman.com is a great site. You should check it out if you haven't already. I think this is where I found all the wolf chatter. Always lots of discussion about baiting, equipment, hunting ethics etc. I'm not sure I have enough time here to talk about the pros and cons of baiting. We'll have to have a cup of coffee on the island to talk about that one.


Baiting... This wont take very long. The pros are what?

There are many other ways to attract deer besides food. We now have an entire generation of young hunters that think deer hunting amounts to whacking one over a beet pile. They know no better. That isn't hunting, nor sporting. it is deer shooting. If one guy does it, then everyone else thinks they have to do it, too.

Aside from deer transmitting disease to one another (by close proximity). We now have several generations of nocturnal deer. Eat all night, sleep all day... maybe see them 10 minutes just before dark enroute to the picnic. Baiting is a great way NOT to see deer. All the "daytime stupid ones" are long gone. "Natural selection" lacking any better term.

Many other states have banned deer baiting outright. I would be pleased to see Michigan do the same.
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joe
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said on the baiting issue Conis. That and the recreational feeding have really changed things for those of us who feel baiting isn't hunting. Haven't shot many deer in recent years on the island that didn't have bellies full of corn, carrots etc. from someone's bait pile, even on parts of the island that are pretty remote.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe, thanks for the support.

No deer baiting isn't deer hunting. It is shooting deer over a bait pile.

Here in Mecosta county, (my home), The deer count isn't deer per section but per acre. Mixed forest, low ground and ag. I read somewhere this area had the second highest deer count/acre in the state. whatever.

My point is they have perfect habitat and abundant food. Unlimited doe permits fails to thin the herd but keep them in check, IF there is a good opener... WE have a ONE DAY deer season (in reality) which is the opener when they all "regroup" and then go nocturnal. After that- 10 minutes before dark and any other time is a waste of time. Eat until they are full and bedded down for the next day by 3am. Sit out there all day and see zippo. Shine the corn/beet fields at night to see 100.

What astounds me more than anything are the MORONS who put out dumptruck loads of sugar beets... I guess with the infinate logic they have to compete against the farmers crops or something? Make a bad situation even worse, you think?

Ever since this baiting thing got started in the 80s, deer hunting has gone to hell. The night feeders survived and the rest didn't, 20+ generations worth.

Maybe if they hunted em like coons, at night ONLY, after 20 years or so the genetic trend would be back to normal?

C
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bknoll
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I respect the opinions of those who choose not to bait and understand the reasoning that some non-baiters use, you paint the picture that the anti's just love. Ole' Jim Bob sitting over carrotts, takin' his pick of the deer that he wants to shoot. If it were that easy, you'd see a deer on top of every knuckleheads car coming home from the hunt.

I have a very small amount of time that I can spend afield. I am primarily a bowhunter. I have never taken a deer with a gun. I also hunt to put meat on the table. Yes, I have shot a deer or two over my bait. Never a buck, but that has not been a priority. My island does have been quite tasty. I wonder what the buck to doe ratio is on the island?? I would venture to say that it is about as messed up as the rest of the state. So, for the geezers that buy their island doe permits and throw them in the woodstove...keep burning your money and I'll continue to pop a doe or two!

There you go Conis...you stirred it up!
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bknoll
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read some of the info from Mississippi and Georgia as to why they don't want to legalize baiting. They have posted some very sound and valid reasoning.

I'm not afraid to say that I use bait. I think many hunters, when polled, deny that they do because they think they will be harassed. For me, bait does not necessarily = deer. I have not gotten a deer far many more years than I have been successful. When I retire and I spend the entire deer season on the island, I don't anticipate using bait because I'll know the area I hunt much better. I'll know where the scrapelines are, where the core area is, etc. I don't have that opportunity yet, only getting to the island 5 or 6 days per year.

I can see some positive things that could happen if we banned bait. But.....hasn't this turned into an economic issue now with the massive amount of $$$$ that hunters spend on this each year?
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bknoll wrote:
Although I respect the opinions of those who choose not to bait and understand the reasoning that some non-baiters use, you paint the picture that the anti's just love. Ole' Jim Bob sitting over carrotts, takin' his pick of the deer that he wants to shoot. If it were that easy, you'd see a deer on top of every knuckleheads car coming home from the hunt. (Edit) There you go Conis...you stirred it up!


At least we have a discussion going!

For the most part, I agree with you, re baiting: The image of Billy Bob shooting deer over a bait pile works well for the anti’s. We are talking about sporting ethics, are we not? Hunting versus shooting?

My position on this has been the long term selective/genetic effects pushing survivors toward nocturnal. Baiting actually reduces the opportunity to “take” a deer. They wont move during the day unless forced by bad weather. Why should they if they aren’t hungry? Around here, baiting is moot. Enough crops to feast on. But the practice continues anyway… Let them bait by the dump load.

I put a couple does in the freezer every year. Two is about what ought to come off the 40 acres I hunt. I haven’t killed a buck in a few years. I let the small ones go. How else can a deer herd be managed but by being selective in thinning? No idea what the buck/doe ratio on BBI is. Around here it is about 1/20. Does taste better, anyway. Corn-fed venison is tough to beat = “high speed beef”. Shooting a doe(s) doesn’t make me a meat hunter. Many QDM area are does only, as they should be to bring the ratio into line and improve strains (so all the deer aren’t each others cousins with flippers).

Let me take this somewhere else: Because everyone else baited, so I once did.

I used to bow hunt. I used to black powder hunt. I still have my 60 lb recurve and 40cal BP rifle. I gave it up because those elements of the hunting “sport” just got too high tech. The odds tipped and all the “bow hunters” jumped in the woods with compounds and beet piles. Show me an archer that can legally take a deer with a traditional bow, not over a bait pile, and my hat is OFF. That archer is BOTH a skilled hunter and sportsman. Modern “black powder” rifles have no disadvantage compared to a center fire rifle. To each their own. Hunt for sport, hunt for meat, hunt just to be out there…hunt to manage the herd, whatever.

How to attract deer? A few days ago, I was perusing a sporting goods catalog: A remote controlled doe decoy with moving head and tale and scent dispenser. Lets toss in a remote electronic deer call to go with it. And a few infra red trail sensors which send back a signal to the “hunter” that deer/game is incoming… Give me a break! Where does one draw the line? I would rather just go hunt and leave all the high tech crap in the hands of those who actually think this stuff represents an advantage? What they do not understand is stifling?

I guess I have come full circle. Why bother attracting deer? Deer are creatures of habit. Using “ambush” as a hunting strategy still seems to work, as anitquated a concept as it is. How I learned to hunt as a kid and where I have returned to by default.

I sit in my deer blind where I have sat for 20+ years, overlooking a ravine the deer use to make their way to the fields in the evening, just like they always have. I use my dads old model 94 30/30 with no scope/open sights… same rifle I shot my first deer with. I pick out a couple, on their way to dinner, and that is that. It is all quite predictable, really. My optional high tech equipment is a flashlight and knife and rope.

Way easier if you think like a deer. Deer aren't rocket scientists.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
I can see some positive things that could happen if we banned bait. But.....hasn't this turned into an economic issue now with the massive amount of $$$$ that hunters spend on this each year?


If baiting was banned and the effect was more hunters seeing more deer during shooting hours, would that draw more hunters who are used to getting skunked staring at a bait pile for hours on end? Maybe. I can't answer that. I can say we have a generation of deer shooters that wouldn't know where to begin, otherwise. New approach?

The DNR is out there to sell licenses? And also under pressure to keep the herd in check.

Not everyone goes deer hunting to shoot deer. Called deer camp. Guns and licenses are optional... more for appearance? If I want meat in the freezer, I stay home. Camp... I wouldn't miss!

Later,
C
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bknoll
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting how you have come full circle in your hunting travels. My journey has just begun. Recently found my dads old Bear Grizzly recurve from the 1950s or 60's. I'm working on getting that in shooting order so I can hunt with it next year. My basement is big enough to practice that 15 yard shot so I plan on messing around with that this winter. I would eventually like to learn how to make and fletch the arrows. I'm ready for a new challenge. I'm at the point now where I know when I actually draw on a deer with my compound and reach my anchor point, I am going to kill the deer.

Much like you, I have hunted with bait because that is what many people do. When I started bowhunting in 1989, my dad wasn't into it and I never really asked him how to hunt. Drive by the gas station, see bait, buy it, go hunting (or as you say, go shooting!). I really do see that day coming soon though when I will not hunt with bait. You could say that I am an evolving hunter.

I have a good book on Michigan Whitetail Hunting by John Williams. He talks a lot about QDM. I really like the book. Conis......Are the neighboring landowners practicing QDM as well? I would imagine that you have talked to each other and have some sort of agreement. Otherwise, as you well know; that spike or fork horn you pass on might get popped as soon as it leaves your property. Some guys I teach with have property by Hale and they and the neighbors are all on the same page. They went a couple of years before they had good shooting sized bucks but it has now paid off. Through quality land management (thinning of trees), food plots, shooting a few does and letting the small bucks grow, they are now seeing very nice antlered deer each year.

Maybe we could have the DNR make BBI a QDM test area. It would be interesting to see the results of this after 5 to 6 years of implimentation.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BKnoll,

It sounds like you are ready to graduate to the recurve. The challenge?

A local bud just dropped by a few days ago to show off this fancy $500 graphite bow with the lighted sites and all the stuff. We were shooting at a hay bale maybe 25 yards After maybe 30 arrows, I got the hang of it and most in the bullseye. Too easy.

The I went in and got my recurve. I couldn't even hit the bale much less hold it at full draw for more than 2 seconds. Been at least 20 years and I suck at it. I am 55, not 25. Like I said... any archer that can take a deer with one of those... no bait (15 yards or so), no tree blind... just a straight ambush... I would stand in awe at the skill. I never got one and it wasn't for lack of effort or stealth. Came close once or twice... but I sure had fun and stories to tell.

I am old school. I learned it from old guys way older school than myself. No concept of ethics. There was just a right/wrong way to do things and the purpose of deer hunting was to put meat on the table.

Thinking back to early 70s... I/we had no money. We ate a lot of deerbutt and counted on it. Some more legal than others. Call it poaching or call it food stamps for free. I wasn't sport hunting in those days.

I had a slow afternoon and went out and cleared the infamous autumn olive bushes away from my blind. Annual event. Looked a spot where a a "hunting incident" occured in '99 which I am going to write about.

I also put out my trail cam today. Got a couple big ones out back. If I get lucky, I will post some big buck pics.

I am a QDM advocate. My next closest neighbors are game hogs. "If it's brown, its down" mentality. Most of the rest of my neighbors are a little more ethical.Take the yearling does and 4-6pt bucks. Leave the rest.

BBI would be a great QDM test. It takes at least 5 years to see results. But it is worth it. My camp on the pigeon (afton) is a QDM area by consensus. 3 years and now seeing more /bigger bucks. Feed plots are going in. Worth it if everyone is on the same page and really understands management... and will pass up a large doe or alpha buck in the process of rebuilding a herd.

more later.

C
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Conis
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanksgiving day 1999:

Beautiful afternoon: Had the turkey and went out back to sit for an hour before dark. So there I sat, on a hill looking down into a grassy field below. A couple small does went across. Let them go.

I sat there for maybe 15 minutes more. Saw a flick of white and there stood MOBY BUCK 10pt, maybe 225 pound monster. I NEVER saw him walk into the field… and there he stood broadside, head down at 60 yards. He must have teleported in?

I was using a scoped rifle at the time. Raised it up, safety off… lined up the crosshairs… I started shaking. It wasn’t buck fever either. I had to make a life and death decision which I never before considered. And this includes some nice bucks I have taken. 15 seconds later… I put the safety on and the gun went back on my lap. I just couldn’t do it.

I watched him until dark and he finally wandered back into the woods, unaware. All the way back to the house I am kicking myself thinking I am old, sentimental, stupid and if I can’t take a trophy when the opportunity comes along…. I ought to just give it up. Pass up an easy shot like that?

There was an alpha buck. Would he have been more beneficial on the hoof or in the freezer with his head in the den? Maybe one of the neighbor kids would get a poke at him… Get the thrill of taking that first BIG deer? I remember that thrill from many years earlier. I got the thrill from the satisfaction of knowing I could have taken him. I think I made the right decision after considering that episode all the way to the next season. It was the responsibility thing, maybe? I didn’t HAVE to kill that buck. In that 15 seconds, I had changed. That’s how it was supposed to go. It wasn’t my lucky day, it was his. Instead... I was blessed.

Fast forward to deer camp last year. (Afton/Cheboygan county). There are 1/10th the deer in Cheboygan county as we have here in Mecosta county. Guys I hunt with take it really seriously and put in a lot of hours just to see a very few. Me? I am not there to shoot deer… but to be at camp with good friends. Sure, I will go out in the evening and “hunt” but only if it is really nice sitting there or a blizzard that will move the deer.

Every morning, buds would be out before dawn to get into their blinds. I’ll pass, thanks. Cold out there? Every morning, watching out the kitchen window, a string of 3-5 does would come down along the river, on the opposite side and cross to my side about 100 yards up stream. And about 10 minutes later, a decent 6 pt buck would do the same. Creatures of habit, going somewhere on schedule. I could have set my watch by them.

What a HUGE temptation: Step out the door with the rifle and BOOM. Have that six pointer hanging when the others got back? NA NA-NA NA NA? Instead I took a picture of it, ran into walmart and had it printed… “I got a buck today… wanna see it???!!!”

When I showed them the 8x10... The look of total disbelief: “Why didn’t you SHOOT IT?”

My answer. “Because I didn’t have to… too easy?”

I’ll never live it down. Maybe I should give it up?

C

If you have never seen it, go rent "Escanaba in da moonlight". The buckless yooper tale. Over the top w/ Jeff Daniels
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Pharmer Lana
Birch Baby
Birch Baby


Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 160
Location: St. Clair

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just saw the play last week in Port Huron. Funny.
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