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Pumping of Inland Lakes
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Pumping of Inland Lakes Reply with quote

The Three main lakes on the island twin thompson and mary's lake all need the silt pumped out of them. The lakes are dying and we are letting this happen I started this many years ago early 90's then it got droped It should be a big concern to everyone on the island The natural beauty of these lakes are dying and have been. I have allways been in favor of planting fishing in the lakes and still am. But I'm more in favor of pumping them first. To do this you are going to have to get the governing body involved It is not like planting fish which we only had to work with the DNR which were all for it. It is going to take a lot of people stepping up to the plate and help to do this. the first thing that has to be done is convince the township board. then the state to find out where the funds is going to come from. It is not a quick project but it is one that needs to be worked on. The next question is who would like to see this done and who would like to work on this.
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white+begle
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is silt? How is it harming the lakes?
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

silt is a thin layer of muddy supstance some places there is 5' of the silt and very little water over it. Lowers the oxigen in the water also. Les food in the shallow muddy ares.
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silt comes from different things - basically from soil erosion and also dead and rotting vegetation gradually running into the lakes and filling them up - hence the lakes are shallower and get much warmer in the summer and have a good chance of having a winter kill in shallower water from freezing almost to the bottom - also ends up with less oxygen in the water for any life form. It is not good
Many lakes in iowa have silt dams - which is basically a small lake in front of a bigger lake where the water comes in - the silt then collects in the smaller lake and is easier to clean out frequently.
Hope that helps.........Ron
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Rich
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,
I would love to see the lakes pumped, but what would they do with the silt?
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know where they would go with it on the island - obvious place to me would be a low or swampy area where it couldn't run right back to the lake - but some of those are protected too - for whatever reason - Mosquito nesting area I guess Wink
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Cindy Childs
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We watched them pump the silt in Virginia Beach from the river and bay at the south end. They pumped it onto the beach area. Then they groomed it with dozers and what looked like our snowmobile trail groomers only for sand and poof!! Beach!!
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DawnM
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be nice be increase the fish population and be able to catch your dinner Smile
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Cindy - That is what they do down here in the river system too - works great - the only thing I'm thinking is that what they pump out of the island lakes might be more a slimy muck then a sand beach, Ya think??
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a great idea!

Why not pump out that muskeg from the lake bottoms and fill the swamps around them to get rid of the mosquitos? Then we could put in a golf course on the filled area; perhaps build a nice gated community.

Put on a tournament every summer, and the township will have to have a second ferry. Maybe a really nice K-Mart and Motel 6 for visitors.

Build it, and they will come.
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Or, you can wait for the water levels in the Lake Michigan-Huron system to return to average, and - like magic - the lake depth will recover.
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie - Haven't you been taking your medication?????????
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Inland lakes have high water in them know they don't go down with the great lakes. There is properity owners that would let you pump the mud on there properity including me. Very good material for growing plants etc.
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Spartan-1
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: pumping inland lakes Reply with quote

Any idea of the cubic yards that might come out of just Twin??? You couldn't clean the entire lake, but some new fishing holes are a must, these lakes are muck ponds at best. They are very beautiful from the shores, but put a boat in and motor around them for a while---what a mess!!!
If this stuff would really make a nice spot on some beaches, it might be nice, but I think it will be more like goose Poo!!! I think Kevin has the best idea, for gardening or growing things. The mosquitoes might turn into a real problem if they think we are trying to fill their hatching grounds!!! I am all for filling some of the swamps at the ends and planting corn, or something the ducks and geese really like to eat, would make my fall trips much more successful!!!
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if we could figure out where Charlie lives - it would be a good place to dump it -
He always has some great ideas Rolling Eyes
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charley would have the best yard on the island by far and we don't want that. Besides someone might stop and see him and he wouldn't like that. There might be one more person on the island and we all would be in trouble. for pumping the lakes and we would attract more people. Maybe they would think they would have a great swimming lake. Or maybe they would think it is the best fishing in michigan. Ha!
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Dave Cox
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as long as no trees get cut down disturbing the natural shoreline and no wetlands get filled in....everything should be just groovy.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:25 pm    Post subject: Silt Reply with quote

The silt is almost nutritionless. There is so little nutrition, that plants like pitcher plants grow there but they depend on eating insects to supplement their diet. Pumping the silt is a perfect example of man screwing up nature's plan. With it go the pitcher plants. With it go the floating ecosystems of grass and many other plants totally unique to BBI.

I fish once in awhile. I would never, however, change one thing about any of our lakes. You might gain a fish or two but the exchange is losing incredible environments that have evolved over thousands of years.

I enjoy the lakes for many reasons beyond taking fish out for dinner. The silty areas are great for Kayaks and canoes. The floating mats of plants at the end of the shallow bays is another defining aspect of Northern Michigan's NATURAL, ancient, landscape. The only way to get next to these awesome plants, for instance, at the end of Thompson Lakes northerly bay, is in a small boat. You can't walk to it. You can't swim to it unless you can tolerate the silt up to your neck. They are desirable because they have not been affected by man.

My vote is to leave it alone. Go fishing in all the tremendous lakes in lower or upper Michigan and learn to appreciate the unique features we have here.

I'll comment no further except through personal messages.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea wher the muck would be put. Nor would we be talking about "just a little muck". I seriously doubt the DEQ would allow it to be pumped in to fill a wetland and/or spread on the beach. It would probably have to be moved by barge to the mainland for disposal. How much would that cost? I heard that dredging spoils from the great lakes have to be disposed of in landfills. No longer kosher to dump dredge in deeper water like the old days. PCB contamination I guess.

Bring up something else here: Hydrostatic Pressure. This relates to underground water tables. When and if Huron comes up to "normal" levels, the inland lakes will rise by some proportion, even if they are physically higher elevation, than huron.

If they are dredged, the water level could quite possibly drop further if a rock fissure is opened up allowing faster escape of water formerly impeded by "muck plugs". From that point, probably ground water contamination with lake surface water filtering in.

I am well short of a hydrology expert. All I can see is enormous costs and potential environmental problems. Don't mess with MOM Nature.

Those lakes are what they are. They were there well before man walked BBI. Clean-clear water with no nutrients pouring in besides decomposing vegitative matter.

In fact I spent most of Friday around Thompson. Looks like it is about 12-15" low. A curious absence of duckweed and emergent water vegetation which indicates how clean the water really is. It takes nutrition to grow pond weeds. A few reeds and cattails here and there. I also saw several bluegill spawn nests along the shore.

If they lack fish, I would tend to blame the cormorants first. With those under control, the fish will return to whatever natural balance level the lake can support them. When the water comes up, there will be more fish in the lake.

I have a pond water test kit which I intend to bring up next trip. With it, simple tests can determine O2, nitrates, nitrites, PH and several other chemical variables... all of which indicate how "healthy" water is. I am very curious to see how Thompson would score. I'll guess close to a "10".

C
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:31 pm    Post subject: Silt Reply with quote

Right on, Conis. I was just on Thompson lake too. It is very clear and with all the minnows I saw, I know that there is food for the fish.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as the pumping out the mud you can put it on all my properity. The D.N.R. did this in gaylord mi. and they haqd a big mound of mud went back a couple months later to remove the mud and it was stolen they like that. lots of growth there. As far as the dredging of the great lakes Cones you are totally wrong they still dump the debrey in desinated areas, Uaslly shallow area. Thats why Ryba Marine has 2 dunp scows for dredging. I know I work dredging all over the great lakes. You guys say to keep it natural you like it. But when it becomes destoyed by no oxgen and no fish or ducks swans or geese. The mud dosn't have to be hauled off the Island. I just Ilke fixing problems that betters everyone. I also did a lot of studying on the silt problem with the DNR biologist a few years back his name is Mason Schroeder he is retired now but this was his district. He said eventally these lakes will be just a mud bog all weeds. A lot of the bays have all ready turned to mud bog. Come to think of it that would make my properity more valluable every one would have to use it to get to twin lakes because where I owne is the deep part of the lake. I could charge to fish. Didn't think of that.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin:

I guess we will agree to disagree.

I don't know know about twin lakes muck situation.

To take dredging equipment into Thompson and make it a "fishing" or "swimming" or "all sports" lake would be absolutely wrong. Muck or not. How does one improve on natures design? If it is to fill in and become a wetland a few centuries from now? So be it.

These lakes were here before us white folks. Somehow they have managed to balance themselves. Lakes evolve over eons.

If we are going to "manage and improve" these natural lakes to the benefit of enhancing property values along the shorelines, Then it is all about the money. I suggest more would be lost than gained.

If I want to fish or swim. I can go to Huron.

These lakes are what they are. Why can we not be content NOT to try and make them fish ponds or swimming pools??? But leave them as natural transitional ecosystems which is exactly what they are.

I like to fish, too. And to fish I will go to a lake with fish in it. My 50-cents worth is that if we want to screw up the BBI environment, messing with the inland lakes would be a good place to start. Leave them alone. Let them be what they are. The loons seem to like them and that says something. 2-4 loons = 10,000 planted walleyes and "fishing opportunities".

Is it about $ value or aesthetic natural value? I can stand on the shore of Thompson and think I am in the wilds of Ontario. Hard to believe this is 10 miles north of Cheboygan. Natural. Undisturbed. As IS. How much is that worth?

These lakes will be as they are... muck or not, fish or not, long after we are both long gone.

So the long term result of these "improvements" is what? Put a fake trout catching lake on the island. Put in a swimming pool. It would be way cheaper and a lot less damaging.

The entire concept of dredging these inland lakes, whether they "need it or not" is absolutely absurd and totally over the top. These lakes do not need to be "managed". Worth far more in a natural state.

C
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Last edited by Conis on Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen twin lakes go down in my life time we used to catch 8-12lb pike in it regulary also big pirch. and used to catch a lot of them. Also used to run all over the lake with a outboard mortor and a boat you won't do that today. I don't think we need to make it a swimming lake or any thing like that. But we do need to save the fishing and the loons and the ducks. To do that you have to put out a little cash. Better know as that mighty green stuff. You aren't trying to save anything you are trying to destroy it. The same as high water in the woods with out draining you destroy trees. They drown) The same as the forest without cutting you don't get new growth and eventully it dies. You want to save it the way it is but it won't stay the way it is sonner or later it will die from miss management. We want the State to manage there properities but we don't want them to touch it. Don't make any since. We have three builtifull lakes on the Island for fishing and hunting and thats the way I like them but they also need our help to survive. It takes work and money to keep the enviroment natural. You could never pump all the mud out of the lakes but you could make it a lot better then it is know. And keep the oxgen flowing for the fish and any other water creature.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK...I agree that resources need some "management". There is a difference between "management", "improvement" and "alteration". Muck removal, as you propose, would need to be done scientifically with the goal of getting it right the first time... else one trashed lake.

    If you dig a deep hole in a muck filled lake without taking all the muck, the hole will simply refill with muck.

    There is a chance of opening some underwater fissure or otherwise muck-sealed entry where lake water can enter the water table and actually drop the lake level.

    Disturbing the muck will release a huge amount of debris and nutrients that may take years to settle out. All of which stimulate weed growth and deplete O2.

    It is quite probable the inland lake levels will come back up IF Huron comes back up. Another 6-12" of water would make a big difference. It could well be that the lakes are NOT filling with muck but have lost enough water to make it appear this way. At least this is my take on things as far as Lake Thompson/Mary. Water is as low as I have ever seen it on both.


Aside from a HUGE expense, I see many more risks that gains, all of which might be temporary.

Let the lake evolve into a "mud bog" or wetland. This is the fate of small shallow lakes lacking inlets/outlets. They are what they are.
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's table the issue until sometime after Island Jam '06 this Saturday night at the tavern. Everybody can leave their disagreements at the door!

Beer!

Dan
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Conis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Reynolds wrote:
Let's table the issue until sometime after Island Jam '06 this Saturday night at the tavern. Everybody can leave their disagreements at the door!

Beer!

Dan


I agree.
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