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Pumping of Inland Lakes
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Brett Krouse
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conis.....Please share your test results with us.

Charlie.......As of last weekend there were few bugs. We had some flies and a few mosquitos but suprisingly few.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Bill Wescott" would know better but in 1991 I belive the DNR did a test of the fish and the lakes including the silt. The biologist said that the perch were stunted. The lakes or at least some parts of them needed to be pumped of the silt to give the fish more depth oxgen and more food. They also said the material was good for growing plants. They put us on a list for pumping but I don't know what happend because I quit following it. But there was testing done by the DNR and I'm going by their results back then. We followed his advice for planting the lakes, except we were suppose to plant 3 yrs in a row and we didn't. The 2nd and 3rd year we were suppose to use 6" walleye but we didn't plant those years. They also reconmented that we make log and brush cover and sink it in the lakes for the fish. And let me say I do respect everyone's opinion, expecially John Elmer Engle's, I know where he is comming from .He doesn't want anything touched and I do respect that, although I disagree with it.
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Rob
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie Trie wrote:
You may own a flock of mules, but you don't think like one.


Laughing
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Conis
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

7/1/06: edited for length and relevancy.


I am going to shift gears: This isn’t directed at anyone who has so far posted.. Just a few comments.

John Engle impresses me as one who understands environmental mistakes are more easily prevented than fixed. Leaving BBI in a “natural state” is it’s appeal. At least to me. I would say the same for the Pigeon River. God bless those who have worked and struggled to preserve that river and natural area from “improvements” and development.

Few understand that the inland lakes of BBI are unlike the inland lakes on the mainland. The hydrology is entirely different. These lakes are not independent entities. Tamper with one and much more than the lake will be affected; long term and irreversible.

These lakes have far more environmental value as wetlands, to hold and contain water. The muck is part of this. Like a big sponge. When they fill up and evolve into bog-wetlands, they will continue to serve a purpose.

The Walleye fishing is apt to be much better on Burt or Mullet lakes. Go there to fish. When you do, you will see the improvements and development of those lakes, Much different NOW than they were 35 years ago. I liked them better, back then. Much cleaner and the fishing was better.

Michigan’s D.N.R. (Do Nothing Right) has essentially been reduced to a legion of park rangers. Back in the old days (Michigan Department of Conservation) they were involved in both conservation and restoration efforts. In these times, they manage the state parks, sell hunting, fishing licenses, snomobile /ATV permits at inflated prices…and generally “manage” the states resources for profit which is revenue back to the state. They have been cut back to the bare bone as well. If the DNR cannot undertake a “project” with the end goal of turning a profit… good luck getting their attention. Funds are tight, manpower is slim. The focus is on damage control and revenues generated.

I don’t remember the date The Mi Department of Conservation was split into the DNR and DEQ. Back in the Late 80s, early 90s? The DEQ is the one which makes decisions affecting wetlands. How well they enforce some of their mandates is another discussion. All I know is much has changed between 1990 and 2006.

Back in early 90's if you owned wetlands. Do what you wanted. Same for shoreline, filling ,dredging, seawalls, whatever. As things have evolved, it has about come to the point where one needs a cattail viewing permit. I probably shouldn’t have said that as it may give the DNR some ideas for another license.

In 1994, Via my county extension office, funds became available for wetland restoration projects. I applied and was granted funds- three projects approved in the countyfrom over 50 applications. These projects were funded by several agencies; DNR, DEQ, Dept F&W, Ducks unlimited and several others. The other 50% out of my pocket.

Anyway, After two years of hoop jumping, site surveys, soil testing, hydrology studies… The department of Fish and Wildlife was able to pull the dozen+ permits needed to construct a dam and flood 4.2 acres of my property into a shallow pond. It isn’t a fish pond. It is a wetland sanctuary which supports ducks, amphibians, herons, dragonflies. An entire wetland ecosystem with me, the landowner, as "steward".

I have worked my *** off on this project. In the process, gained some understanding of inter relations of all the elements in a wetland. Call it a hands on crash course/education. I have learned one lesson. Actually many lessons over and over: Change ONE thing and that changes something else which affects something else. It is all a very delicate-intricate balance. I have been privileged to “play god” managing this pond-laboratory . The more I learn, the dumber I get.

It has been a success. All the hard work was worth it. Never-EVER would I have been able to do this project on my own. The permits came ONLY with the approval and blessing of state and federal agencies who could draw the permits with the least red tape. And it still took two years just to get started. The fine-line being a restoration of a wetland, not an “improvement” to a swamp.
~~~~
There is a bacteria-enzyme product which eats muck. Can’t recall the name of it but can look it up. Anyway, it works like “ridex” which is used to decompose solids in septic systems. Not a chemical, safe and EPA approved. In Large volume, is cost effective against digging.

I tried it and trust me, it works. I tested it in a small 50x50' pond and it took the muck down 18” over a summer. I also discovered it can be cultured in 55 gallon drums. Don’t have to keep buying it. Home brew your own. It initially comes as pellets. Thats fine except the pellets tend to sit on the muck and slowly work from the top down. The problem is the enzyme tends to dilute and get washed away, making it less effective. I had much better luck injecting it into the muck, as a liquid, using a small pump.

This may be an alternate solution to reduce muck levels in specific target areas. Way less invasive than digging and does NOT trash all the creatures that call muck, home. (Snails, leaches etc. all important to the health and balance of a lake/pond.)

This trip up, I am going to take water and sediment samples from Twin, Thompson and Mary Lakes bring them back for testing.

Last trip up, I spent most of a day at Thompson. That lake just amazes me every time I see it. I see clam shells around the shore. Freshwater clams cannot survive in anything but the cleanest of water. Schools of minnows by the thousands…A few bluegill beds here and there. I see reeds here and there, a very few cattails.

What I don’t see are submerged weeds growing from the bottom. No nutrients in the silt. Why would there be? No farms, no fertilized lawns. Thompson is totally supplied by run off from cedar groves which 99% surround the lake. The water comes in clean and “prefiltered”. All Thompson does is catch it and release it into the aquifer as it seeps slowly through the silt on the bottom.

At least that’s how I think it works.

Logging off for a while.

C

PS

Fish in the lakes: It doesn't surprise me an iota that the fish are small and stunted. This typically happens when fish become inbred and the balance between "feed" fish (pan fish/perch) become out of balance with predator fish (pike/bass). The number of fish a lake can support is determined by feed and water level.

I also maintain that the water levels are down and the muck isn't "coming up" = less fish sustaining capacity that say 10 years ago when Huron Levels were "normal".

Restocking with Walleye may help (more predator fish). What would really do the job is to "start over". Some may disagree with this approach but it has been proven to work in other lakes where fish populations have become out of balance, stunted. Clear the lake of all fish. restock with new strains, in the correct proportions. Now we are messing with things? You bet! Call it making adjustments. And it wouldn't be cheap to do.

Sheep come in flocks. Cows come in herds. Not so sure about mules?
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mikewhite
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:47 am    Post subject: Sticking my nose in for a minute! Reply with quote

Conis says, "I also maintain that the water levels are down and the muck isn't "coming up" = less fish sustaining capacity that say 10 years ago when Huron Levels were "normal".

It is possible that the present lake levels are "normal". I remember back in the 50's that Gull Island had big mature trees on it. The water must have been down for years for that to have happened. One year when our family came up I could see the trees getting flooded out and dying.

You could say that, in your memory, the water was higher than normal and now the lake levels are back to normal.
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:54 am    Post subject: Historic Water Levels Reply with quote

According to the Army Corps of Engineers the current water levels in Lake Huron are 17 inches below the long-term average (1918-2005). (ie, the actual data supports Conis's memory - it's worth examining on their website.)

The meaning of 'long-term' is uncertain. There is some archeologic data from Lake Michigan that suggests current levels are at a generic high. Cycles run 500 years or so. During the bottom of the super-cycles, the Great Lakes become Great Rivers.
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Conis
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Sticking my nose in for a minute! Reply with quote

mikewhite wrote:
Conis says, "I also maintain that the water levels are down and the muck isn't "coming up" = less fish sustaining capacity that say 10 years ago when Huron Levels were "normal".

It is possible that the present lake levels are "normal". I remember back in the 50's that Gull Island had big mature trees on it. The water must have been down for years for that to have happened. One year when our family came up I could see the trees getting flooded out and dying.

You could say that, in your memory, the water was higher than normal and now the lake levels are back to normal.


Very good point! Somewhere I read the great lakes water levels seem to go up/down on a 20 year cycle? The reasons for which are part science and part speculation. Beyond me. Whatever "normal" is I guess my point was that Huron Levels have a +/- hydrostatic influence on Inland Lake levels.

What I find interesting are the gravel berms in the island, sort of cascading in elevation from higher ground down to the lake, all representing "normal" (post ice age) lake levels of eons ago.

My camp on Rocky road is perched on one of these berms, perhaps 20' higher than the current lake level. Way back then, I would have been "waterfront". And The inland lakes might have been bays connected to Huron... And BBI would have been a fraction of the size it now is.

500 year cycles? Could be. Perhaps what I recall as a 20 year cycle represents an oscillation in an overall trend? If we have hit the high water mark, I am glad I won't be around 500 years from now to see what the low water mark looks like!

C
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't recall where I saw the article about the huge water level cycles, but here was the first thing that came up on Google:http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/9293/Oct26_92/22.htm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject: Glacial Rebound Reply with quote

Those berms are also called beach terraces by scientists.

To really confuse people, scientists add another factor called glacial rebound into the mess and say that those berms were actually at the level where the shore is now at some point in the distant past. In other words the land is very slowly rising out of the Great Lakes. the hinge point is somewhere down around Detroit.

Getting back on subject of the inland lakes, that would mean that they are being raised higher and higher out of lake Huron and may account for a lower water level in them. So the aging of the lakes may be only part of the problem.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don';t know why you think the inland lakes have a lower water level because twin lakes is higher then I have seen it in years. Not much of a point sticking out. You used to walk out on the point a long way. now you get your feet wet. I don't belive that the inland lakes go up and down with the great lakes I have seen the island lakes higher when the great lakes are down and lower when the great lakes are up . Like right know.
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mikewhite
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:33 pm    Post subject: Lake levels Reply with quote

I agree that in our lifetimes, our fathers & grandfathers lifetimes, the level of the inland lakes have changed little. It looks the same to me know as it did 45 years ago. I believe that the underlying clay and rock prevent much water from getting out though the lake bottoms and is the reason the lakes are there in the first place.

What I was trying to say is over thousands of years the inland lakes have slowly become smaller due to "aging". I wanted to add that glacial rebound may be another factor in the lakes becoming smaller [over thousands of years]. I have some huge aerial photographs that show low areas filled with muck, with trees growing here and there. Those areas were, way way back in time, a part of the lake. I have walked on it and if you jump up and down near a tree, it will sway back and forth. Scary!

Pumping out the muck would slow or reverse the natural aging process for a very short time, if your thinking in terms of thousands of years.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mke I'm thinking in terms of now to the next 100 yrs. Questions is do you think it would improve the lakes both by senery and fishing and traveling the lakes by pumping out the mud or at least some of it. Because you and I both no that you couldn't even pattle a conoe in some places of the lake. But you could stick a rod down 10- what ever feet and not hit a bottom. That mud cannot be good for our lakes. Why do we want a muck field anyway? I like taking my grand kids fishing and let them catch any kind of fish just like you and I did as kids. But that isn't going to happen very much longer and we won't be able to do that. Do you call that nature. How many people are for making the lakes better then they are by pumping out the mud or how many people are in favor of them becomming a muck field. Like you said MIke a bog that just is good for hatching bugs.
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Rich
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea conis had about treating the silt first and see how much good that does. But I agree Kevin that the lakes should be saved some how.
Hey conis where do we get this treatment product you were talking about and do we need a permit?
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NJean
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We do not want to see the lakes reduced to mud bogs either. Fishing on the inland lakes where you see very few people is one of the reasons we purchased land on the island. Yes we did try the fishing before we bought any property. First time out we got one pike and a lot of 3" perch. We too, want to take our grandkids fishing just like our parents and grandparents did but they won't enjoy it much if they don't catch anything. I would like to see the lakes restocked with fish too. As far as the silt goes the enzyme product sounds like the least invasive way to go, if it actually works. I'm just a little scepticle when it comes to product claims until I know someone who has actually tried it. By the way, what is the name of this particular product? I'll get my dad to put it in his pond and see what happens. His muck is probably as bad as twin lakes.
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Brett Krouse
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Accurate information on what is really happening to the lakes would be nice. Maybe one of the sates universities would be interested in doing some research.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The water on the lakes around the point of twin lakes is about 8' deep. As you go about 100 yds to the East it turns to silt about 2-3 ft of water then to about 1' of water all the rest of the east lake. The west lake has one more deep spot about 8' deep down by the babcock park. then the rest of the lake is eather all silt or about 1-2' of water at the most. A lot of mud. I'm for any method that works and don't harm any wild life that can get this lake cleaned up. As far as fishing goes I do want to fish twin lakes, thompson lake, and mary's lake not burt lake which is not on the island. The reason that burt lake has a lot of walleye fishing is because we stock it with waleye about 10-12 years ago three years in a row. And it has been dredged a few times over the last 20 yrs. It has great sand beaches and some 30' holes that are great fishing. Thompson lake was dynimited on the south shore of the island by Ray Plaunt and Ray Anderson years ago. Made good fishing for years.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject: Inland Lakes Reply with quote

The lakes provide fantastic visual beauty. They provide habitat for many- a-creature beside fish. To me, there is no problem with the lakes. The only threat to them is man and that can be seen from the water just east of the narrows on the south shore...what used to be a totally wild, natural shoreline was changed radically a year or two ago. Too much fret about natural changes and not enough concern about the real enemy of the lakes...chainsaws and bulldozers used without any thought to the environment on the edge of the lake or what our fellow man views from the water.

Personally, I am grateful that there is so much silt in the lakes because it just grosses out the PWC crowd. The lakes are so much quieter without them.

Sometimes I wonder, "For some people, is there anything on BBI that should be left totally alone and simply appreciated in its original state?"
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I wonder, "For some people, is there anything on BBI that should be left totally alone and simply appreciated in its original state?"


I totally agree... too much time on their hands?
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree with both of you and about telling other people what to do with there properity I disagree on that too. If you want to restrict people from clearing there properity, that is there right maybe you should by up the island then you could control that. That is not right. How much properity do you even own and did you clear it to build a house. Maybe you cleared more then other people wanted you to. Did you keep it natural or did you clear. As far as the PWC I would not want to see them on the lakes, but if they are legal to do so I wouldn't want to stop them. Personally I don't like to see you out there in a conue either, But some body gave you that right. I think maybe only properity owners sould be able to use the lake. Maybe that would get some attention. In a few years that will be true on twins anyway because you won't even be able to pattle a conue from the public access.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Property use Reply with quote

Most people practice what I call common courtesy. Part of that means being a good neighbor. Being a good neighbor on BBI means preserving the natural beauty of the island for islanders and visitors. Since the water is public, it would be courteous if those responsible for the waters edge left it in its natural state. If you want to improve the inland lakes so bad, start with the waters edge because that is where inscects, minnows, and crustaceans thrive and of course these are primary food for the fish you want to catch so bad.

You don't own the land...you are responsible for it for a short time and then you are gone. No one is telling you what to do with your land but perhaps I am suggesting an alternative to traditional methods.

You may not want to see a canoe on the lake but at least you won't hear it. If you don't want to see canoes, leave the shoreline trees and you won't have to look at them. There, everyone is happy.

After all we have learned and experienced about what not to do to natural places, it is sad to see 1950 thinking persisting in 2006.
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own 1600' of lake front properity including the point back there wouldn't it look good cleared and one big corn field. then you won't have to worry about what it looks like back there you will know (corn field)
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin - let me see if I have this straight:

You want the lake silt pumped so that you can fish and swim in the lake. You own 1600 feet of frontage on that lake. And, you want someone else to pay for it.

When I look up your property at the County Assessor's office, I see that you claim a homestead exemption for much of your property. Should I assume that you don't want to pay property taxes, but you want the rest of the property owners to pay for your project?

Am I correct?

Does that seem fair?
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Spartan-1
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: pumping inland lakes Reply with quote

Kevin,

If you are going to plant corn on the narrows PLEASE, reserve a spot for my layout blind. You would not find better fowl hunting in the state if you could do that. I will even lease a portion from you if you would like, I know what corn lookings like and so do geese and ducks!!! They would look great falling from the sky into my decoy bag!!!

Plus you would have much less chance of forest fire in a corn FIELD!
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject: 1600 feet, eh... Reply with quote

Destroying your own property seems kinda...crazy and unfriendly to the island community.

On a friendly and serious note, the property on either side of the point is spectacular. I love looking at your land from the water. I know that anyone that has been in the lake and gazed on your land loved every natural inch...you own a paradise. I saw what may be your land with Eric one September day.

This will be my last comment. You "own" it and are responsible for any land change. What you do will tell a loud and clear story about your values and concerns for the Bois Blanc Island community. As your grandchildren gaze upon your land from the fishing boat, what lesson will they learn from observing grandpa's property?

Will they walk out to the lake on "deer" trails or on an open yard cleared to the water?

We can only hope.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie you don't have to pump by my properity it is the best fishing and the deepest on the lake. Getting to it could be problems for the rest of you though. And I don't own on thompson or Mary;s they need pumping also. And that properity isn't homesteded. Is yours? Besides I'm changing mine to farming a lot more benifits. Thats why I started planting corn and apple trees and cherrys, Pumkins will be next. Just have to clear out some of those junk trees, anybody want to buy some.
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