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Pumping of Inland Lakes
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Rich
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, I think that what you said is exactly what Kevin wants. He wants his grandchildren to be able to fish these lakes. He should be considered somewhat of an expert on this subject due to his history. If fishing was great when he was a kid and now it's far less (and it isn't overfished) that's not a good sign. We are talking about restoring and maintaining not creating or destroying.
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:36 am    Post subject: Fishing/lakes/shoreline Reply with quote

If all I read was the fishing portion of Gibbons thread, I could, in a tiny way, buy into your comments. But fishing is not the issue that alarms me. Nuff said.
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NJean
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got 'till it's gone.

John this statement fits Kevin's goal too.

The lakes are shrinking and so is the fish population. Kevin knew what he had as a kid and he sees it going away. We all try to hold on to some part of our childhood. As far as Conis's statement, "go fish on Burt or Mullet lakes." If I wanted to fish on those lakes I would have bought property on those lakes. By the way Conis, isn't your lakefront property on Thompson Lake for sale after only owning it for 2 years? Are you playing both sides of the fence here? Tree hugger and profit seeker. We know what you paid for the property and we know what you have it listed for.

We bought 10 acres of lakefront property on Thompson Lake and built the cabin 3000" from the lake. Does it sound to you like we want to ruin appearance of the lake just because we want to use it. We only cut down the trees necessary to build the cabin and cleared some of the junk hemlocks so the hardwoods could grow. The other 9.5 acres will remain untouched.

I too, do not like people telling me what I can do with my property. I understand the concept of saving the environment, but some people just go a little too far trying to tell other people what they can do with their property.

I don't believe the type of people some of you are worried about are interested in property on the inland lakes anyway. No sandy beaches, water snakes, rattle snakes, giant spiders, mosquitoes and black flies do not appeal to the type of people you are worried about. They wouldn't last one summer. It would also take a lot of gravel hauling to build on the lakefront of most of the inland lakes. Most of the island is cedar swamp. Just how much swamp does one need?
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Kevin Gibbons
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This will be my last post on this subject. We the people need to be responsible on the forest and water. It is called forest and water management. This Island used to have forest management by our fathers and grandfathers and D>N>R> no more. There was a lot of logging in the early 1900's which brought some of us here. They logged this whole Island. Hauled off by barges a lot of logs. They had camps and schools for the loggers. Then it was logged again in the late 50's and hauled off by barges from the west end dock to mackinaw city. And there has been small portions since. Thank God these people knew you had to log to save forest thats why we have what we have today. Now we need to do forest management also just to keep our forest so it don't dye and fall down. You cannot have big thick brushy trees without cutting and thinning or they will all dye. We need under growth to keep a nice forrest. The same is true on the lakes we need to manage them they won't live by themselfs. We want to keep them natural then we need to help them. Becomming mud bogs isn't natural. (Thats lazyness) You need to manage the lakes and forrest. The same as you do your home build it keep it natural and don't ever touch it and it will fall down or rot. and look like hell. Why do we have a fire department or county road department we sould let happen what happens. You wouldn't be able to get down the road, or everything might burn. That don't make since to me. And by the way Bois Blanc isn't any different then any other island or place in the country it needs help to survive. I hope everyone works to try to keep the Island nice.
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Dan Reynolds
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like what Kevin says in this most recent post. It is important to remember how much of the Island was logged, and not very long ago at that - just go to the historical museum and look at the photos. We just stopped in there last week and I was again fascinated by looking at those photo albums - much of the Island looked like miles and miles of toothpicks without anything left standing. Today's Island, in all its splendor, is truly a young forest, and is only the way it is because so much was cleared less than a century ago. That doesn't mean I want to see it happen that way again, but there were benefits to what did occur.

Kevin also has several generations of experience behind him when it comes to how the Island should be treated. He's seen more of its cycles than most of us "part-timers" ever will, and I respect that experience.

Some of the healthiest forests in the world are those that have been devastated, in the recent past, by fire. Again, I'm not inviting a forest fire, but you get the drift.

Maybe none of us has the "right" answer. We can only do what we think is best, based on our own experiences. Nature does occasionally benefit by human intervention. Not every mark made by human beings is necessarily a scar.

Dan
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Troy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, Kevin and Dan.
I am glad John has posted his last remark on this thread. It was in danger of becoming another place for him to preach. It seems every thread turns into a lecture about clearing your land. Wasn't this one about whats happening UNDER the water?

#Fadeing color Peace!
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Gibbons wrote:
There was a lot of logging in the early 1900's which brought some of us here. They logged this whole Island. Thank God these people knew you had to log to save forest thats why we have what we have today.

The same is true on the lakes we need to manage them they won't live by themselfs. We want to keep them natural then we need to help them.



Yep, clear-cutting and dredging. That's what made Disneyland the happiest place on earth.

I'm not afraid to watch Nature be natural.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject: land Reply with quote

I will repeat what Troy said .....


" well said Kevin and Dan"
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Ron Petersen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie - I think Round Island would be a perfect place for you to live - No stores, no bars, no motorized vehicles, Live under a tree and you would be with all your friends - it's too bad you can't see the forrest for the trees!!!!
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John Elmer Engel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:49 pm    Post subject: Troys Comments Reply with quote

Troy, I'm sorry to get back on the site, but you poked me in the chest with your finger so I have to poke back.

First, if you read every post I've made, nowhere will you see me saying not to clear your land. I've specifically spoke only of shorelines. There are two approaches: traditional and non-traditional. Its called thinking outside the box.

Nature manages itself. One only has to look at man's management of the Mississippi delta and New Orleans. Men drained those nasty, bug producing swamps so folks could live there. Good management?

Do you guys actually think that if the land is left alone it won't continue to be a vital living plant and animal community? That's so funny.

Troy, I can appreciate your problem understanding my preaching. It's ok. I have a different point of view, that's all.

Maybe you could enlighten us about your philosophy about preservation or whatever. I'll read it and be open minded.
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Troy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My philosophy is not that much different than yours John. I just don't feel the need to turn every thread into a discussion about my philosophy.

Kevin started this thread asking for opinions about pumping the lakes. Are you for or against the idea?
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject: Carbon Footprint Reply with quote

Why don't you try looking at your carbon footprint:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_footprint

http://www.gdrc.org/uem/footprints/carbon-footprint.html

http://www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.html

http://www.bp.com/extendedsectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9008204&contentId=7015209


Then you'll get a sense of the importance of wetlands and other 'junk' landscape.
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:14 pm    Post subject: water Reply with quote

Conis

You never bore me ....

Keep sharing !!
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: wat Reply with quote

Conis ..

you never bore me

keep sharing !!
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a concept:

"Nature" really doesn't need to be "managed".

For this reason, isolated wilderness areas have been dedicated as natural areas where development and improvement and recreational opportunities have been terminated so we might all have some reference to "natural". This might include lakes which are evolving into wetlands, which have as much worth as a lake with fish in it.

This thread really isn't about pumping mud out of twin lakes as much as it is about whether or not the islands natural resources are to be improved for recreational opportunites... OR left in a natural state, as is.

For those of you unfamiliar with the Little Traverse Conservency, I suggest you visit their website. Without their help and assistance, many unspoiled, unimproved, undeveloped private tracts would be forever lost to "management".
C
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rudy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:44 pm    Post subject: Pump the lakes?? Reply with quote

Wow, is this a joke? I have been off for a while, but don't cha'all get crazy without me! I'd just bet that dredging or pumping would be just what Dr. Kevorkian ordered! Havn't you ever noticed what happens WHENEVER man decides he is going to solve a problem, especially concerning nature. Wow, pump the muck out of the lake! Unbelievable! It'd be like ripping the testicles off a healthy teenager so he could relive his childhood!
I have often imagined, as I hike the inland paths and shorelines of Bois Blanc, what it would have been like if man hadn't deflowered it (time after time). Ever been to Hartwick Pines? Ever seen a truly virgin stand of cedar or pine? Wow, managing nature is an oxy-moron and managing probably shouldn't have a MAN in it!. Call me a tree-hugger, it fits like an old-slipper. I've always been more comfortable around trees than some people. I agree in listening to the wisdom of our elders.... just can't find any humans more wise than a great, old tree! Conis, when are we going to get together for a drink?
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Conis
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YO RUDY!!!!

Where ya been man? Thanks for the brief interlude of sanity!

C
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rudy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: explanation of absence Reply with quote

What a long, strange trip it's been! Too keep it short; A year ago I was coughing non-stop. In September I was diagnosed with either hodgkins disease or lymphoma. Specialist in October.test.test.test....... finally a diagnosis of sarcoidosis...and many unanswered questions. Thanks to my wonderful wife and a lot of research on her part, and convincing the doctor to try an unusual treatment, I stopped coughing in about 6 weeks and my last catscan was totally clear! woohoo! My energy level is up and life looks longer! Sorry, but during this, family and homelife became a lot more important than (excuse the expression) muck-racking with ya'll!
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:20 pm    Post subject: lakes Reply with quote

Charlie ....

They may disagree with you on alot of things .. but ...... in general you know tons of things about the earth and what goes on .....
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theeislandgirl
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:25 pm    Post subject: Rudy Reply with quote

I was wondering where you and your family were .. You have been missed ..
Happy things are going bettter for you !! Very Happy

Welcome Back Rudy !!!!
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Conis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: AQUACLEAR Reply with quote

Rich wrote:
I like the idea conis had about treating the silt first and see how much good that does. But I agree Kevin that the lakes should be saved some how.
Hey conis where do we get this treatment product you were talking about and do we need a permit?


The product is called AQUACLEAR, available from the Aquacide Company in Minnisota. I have ordered stuff from this company. Comes quickly and price includes shipping.

http://www.killlakeweeds.com/shop.cfm?groupid=AQUACLEAR%20Pellets%20%26%20Liquid

It and other similar products are available from pond supply stores on line and I have also seen it at farm/ag stores (Ie Tractor Supply).

Here is what I can tell you.

It works... conditionally. It says it "eats muck"... well it does sort of. It doesn't eliminate silt but decomposes organic materials in silt. Like eating the topsoil but not sand. The net effect is less muck, depending on the amount of organics in the silt.

It isn't a chemical. It is a "biological agent/enzyme" so I don't think a permit is required. Don't take my word on this. I have only used it on private ponds.

I used it (pellets) in a 50x50 "goldfish pond" that had at least 3' of black "muck" from decayed leaves. I would say it took the muck down 12-18" over the summer. The warmer the water, the better it works. I tried the liquid in another small pond but injected it into the muck with a small pump, maybe 6" deep. I think it worked better because it kept the solution contained in a target area.

To find out if it works, you would have to invest in a small can and do some tests in a target area. That or have the "muck" analyzed which cost much more. If it doesn't do much, then there is more silt than nutrients and vice versa.

It is much less expensive in volume and very cost effective against mechanical removal IF it works. I doubt very much if it will clear muck to the bottom but could be used to deepen some areas.

I like it because it a non chemical/non mechanical biological solution which doesn't harm fish, or marine animals or organisms. Nor does the muck have to be moved and disposed of. I suspect that treating a Lake would require a substantial initial investment (but still less than dredging) with annual (maintainence) followup in lesser amounts.
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems innocuous: pellets of microorganisms to speed up the composting.

Just like tossing unused fishing worms onto the ground:

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/063worm_infest/

http://www.nrri.umn.edu/worms/


Who wudda thought?
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Conis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmmmm. I just learned something new.

Based on that information, I would assume Michigans forests are "worm tolerant".??? I am going to have to re read that one a few more times.

Interesting analogy to the muck eating bacteria. Essentially the same composting action but in an underwater eco-system. By removing the nutrients, the weeds (considered bad) go away too, which is usually the desired effect. but not always the best effect. Change one element in a system and the changes cascade from there.

The upside is that this bacteria, as far as muck and weed control goes, is much less invasive than mechnical or chemical control. And it can be targeted to specific areas. In the few experiments I tried, I didn't see anything like dead snails, leaches etc nor did I do a before and after head count. Things seemed fine threafter.
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Charlie Trie
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject: But, also, Reply with quote

some are wont to ban fishing with worms, because worms destroy the forest.

Perhaps we could get the gumment TSA to check passengers boarding Kurt's boat for night crawlers......Can you imagine having to take off your shoes on the dock to let them check for smuggled bait?
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Conis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am holding SYRIAN ATTACK TRAINED ROBINS responsible. They drop one over a giant Sequoia...and poof, that sucker is night-crawlered-toast.

What next? Killer Turnips disquised as Elvis?

It's one big conspiracy.
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